[00:00:00] 

Intro

Kate Grandbois: [00:00:00] Welcome to 

Amy Wonkka: SLP Nerd Cast. I'm Kate. And I'm Amy. And we appreciate you tuning in. Whether you are an SLPA teacher, an EI provider, an allied health professional, or a parent or guardian of somebody with speech and language needs, we hope this podcast will give you some valuable information and keep you at least a little entertained in our podcast to be review resources, literature, and discuss issues related to the field of speech language pathology.

Kate Grandbois: You can use this podcast for ASHA Professional Development. For more information about us and certification maintenance hours, go to our website, 

Amy Wonkka: www.slpnerdcast.com. Uh, you can also find permanent products, notes, and other handouts, including items for free and for purchase on our website. So come check us out and leave us a [00:01:00] review wherever you get your 

Kate Grandbois: podcasts.

We should remember to not start recording while we're both having the giggles. I can't stop laughing. Hello listeners. We're so glad you're here with us today. We're sorry that we're having a laughing fit, but that's okay. I think in that little intro, I ended our website like a question. I went www.com.

Okay. Maybe that's what, that's way we could say it from now on. So, but I didn't say hooray or za at the end. Mm-hmm. Did you notice that? Are you so proud of me? I did. I'm feeling very, because I was laughing so hard. That's great. I was trying not to make noise before we get started. In today's episode's, financial and non-financial disclosures, um, I am the owner and founder of Grand WA Therapy and Consulting, LLC and co-founder of SLP Nerd Cast.

Amy Wonka is an employee of a public school system and co-founder of SLP Nerd Cast. Uh, we're both members of ASIG 12 and both serve on the a a C advisory [00:02:00] Group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. I am a member of the Berkshire Association for Behavior Analysis and Therapy, mass, a BA, the Association for Behavior Analysis International and the corresponding Speech Language Pathology and Applied Behavior Analysis special Interest group.

Um, what are we talking about today? All the icky feelings, but there's so many icky feelings to be had in 2020. What kind of icky feeling? Uh, that's fair, fair point. All the icky feelings, meaning all of the icky feelings that come along with receiving critical feedback or providing feedback, that can give some ick feelings.

It can. I think feedback in general is something that culturally we're just not. We're not really set up to do very well. 

Amy Wonkka: No, and I mean, I think a lot of us are people, people, and so, you know, conflict is challenging. Conflict. I mean, we've talked about that a bit [00:03:00] before on this podcast. You know, conflict with other practitioners, or not really conflict, but disagreements.

And so it feels, you know, it feels a little uncomfortable, but it's an important part of growing as a professional and being a professional who works effectively with others. Um, it feels a little leaky sometimes, 

Kate Grandbois: I think. I think every single, I would assume that every single I. Professional, no matter, even if you're not a clinician, has had an icky feelings moment when receiving critical feedback or maybe communicating with a supervisor or a mentor or, or whoever.

I think it's a just something that happens. We all went through graduate school where our supervisors did nothing but analyze every single thing we did and tell us what we did wrong. Um, and I think, you know, Amy and I are in our, not the later end of our careers, but we're, we've both been working for over 10 years and we've had many, many, it, it doesn't, it doesn't stop with graduate school.

It keeps going. No, there are so [00:04:00] many more times to feel icky. Um, and we chose this topic for a couple of different reasons. First, we had an Instagram pull up and some of our listeners wrote in and said that they were really interested in learning about critical feedback and mentorship. Um. The second reason we wanted to tackle this is that it comes up in the lives of all clinicians and SLPs.

You can't grow unless you get critical feedback or identify with some things that you want to improve upon. Um, a lot of people go into supervisory positions or mentoring positions with, without any leadership training, um, or supervisory training in our field. I think depending on your workplace, people get promoted based on clinical skills or maybe administrative skills instead of leadership skills, which are very, very different.

Um, and so sometimes the feedback delivery system or the feedback context as we will learn, that's what the, some of the words that they use in the literature can be [00:05:00] a conduit for those icky feelings. 

Amy Wonkka: Mm-hmm. And I think too, you know, getting, I. I say often when you run out of things to learn, it's time to retire.

Right. So we're, we're always, 

Kate Grandbois: I was gonna, I was gonna 

Amy Wonkka: say die. 

Kate Grandbois: You were gonna say die when it's from you run. I had a fifth grade teacher shout out Mrs. Gull, who would say, the day that you don't learn anything is the day you're dead. She would say that to me when I was like 10 years old. What does that tell you?

What does that tell you? I thought you were gonna say, the day you stop, the day you have nothing else to learn is the 

Amy Wonkka: day it's time to die. But I guess 

Kate Grandbois: that's, 

Amy Wonkka: well that's a, that's a darker, that's a darker spin. But I was thinking more, um, the day that that's the day you go hiking more or go to the day you retire.

I like that. Or I'm gonna, I'm gonna knit so many more items. Right, right. So, so regardless of you, there's also this piece of, you know, I think as you grow as a professional, you hopefully develop sort of an internal critical feedback loop for [00:06:00] yourself where you are able to ask some of the same questions and kind of give yourself step back and.

Look critically at your work as a clinician, and I think that while what we are talking about in the literature we'll talk about today is related to, you know, feedback. From a supervisor or a mentor. I think some of these same things are just clinical skills that you can develop within yourself as well to help f facilitate your growth as a clinician.

Kate Grandbois: Um, and, and in the past, whenever we've taken on a topic, it's something that we have in our scope of competence. And so when we decided that we wanted to talk about mentorship, um, and critical feedback, we sort of had to ask ourselves the question, what business do we have, you know, sort of talking about this because neither of us is working in, um, you know, a, a facility where we're.

Uh, being the mentor for everybody, but both of us have experience working as mentors. Um, both of us have experience working with mentors officially and [00:07:00] unofficially. Both of us have been mentored. So we have been in the mentee. I personally have been, um, mentoring in a more official capacity as of recently as part of my private practice, um, going into institutions and setting up mentoring, um, programs, and also, um, participating in the ASHE Step program, which is such a great program.

If anybody is out there and interested in learning more about that, I highly recommend it. Um, we can even put a link up to the step mentoring program on our site. It's been a really, really great experience. Um, so given that this has been a part of our professional lives for the last handful of years, we wanted to go into the literature, um, and improve our own understanding of, of mentorship and critical feedback and share what we found.

That's fair to say, right? 

Amy Wonkka: Yes. Good synopsis. I think that is fair to say. So. So yes. Very, very well. Synopsized. 

Kate Grandbois: We don't have enough time for all this laughing. [00:08:00] We're gonna, we're gonna run over again. Okay. So, so based on all of those items, um, we have three learning objectives for today's episode. Um, learning objective number one, identify the feedback, landscape, supervision, mentorship, and the benefits of each learning objective.

Number two, describe the importance of critical feedback learning. Objective number three, identify several strategies for receiving critical feedback. Um, that being said, let's move on to, um, learning objective number one, identify the feedback, landscape, supervision, mentorship, and the benefits of each.

All right. So Kate, yeah, you did, uh, you did a webinar that you thought was awesome. I did. Tell us about it. And since I have the habit of trying to make friends, this is really annoying thing I do. I emailed the lady who did the webinar and she's my, um, my, my collection to your pen pal friend. Now, it was the nicest, [00:09:00] nicest woman.

So I took this webinar by a woman named Jean Blosser. Uh, she's an ASHA fellow, and the, the webinar, if anybody's interested in taking it, was through Med Bridge, which is an online learning, CEU Doda. Um, and the name of the webinar was Supervision and Mentoring Throughout the Career Journey. Um, it was, I think two Ashe s or one Ashe eu.

I can't remember which. But either way, Jean Blosser is super nice. She was very responsive to my. Very nerdy email, I guess. I don't know, just like stranger sending you notes and love notes about how great your webinar was. Um, but she, um, is very, well, she has a lot published in this area. She was very knowledgeable about this area.

So if you listen to our episode and you have more questions, I highly recommend, um, I don't wanna say reach out to her because that might be, that might be a little aggressive, but, um, maybe check out this webinar. It was really great. And the, the [00:10:00] point of the webinar was that supervisor supervision and mentorship are really two separate things and I think it's important to distinguish between how they're different dis it's important to identify how they're different because the feedback co, the feedback context and the feedback environment is very different in each of these relationships.

Um, and the way that she described it, which I thought was very succinct, was that supervisors, supervisors evaluate us. And mentors nurture us. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't crossover there. I've had some great supervisors whose job was to evaluate me as an employee who were also very inspiring and very nurturing and very encouraging for me to like, you know, grow to be my best clinical self.

Um, but at the general crux of it, that was the, the two anchors of those two terms. So supervision is something that is established in a workplace, 

Amy Wonkka: and mentorship might also be something that's established in a workplace. And I think that whether [00:11:00] you're an evaluating person or a nurturing person really does set the context for, for all of the rest of your interactions.

And while you can have a great supervisor who functions in many ways as a mentor at the be at the end of the day, they're still evaluating you, they're still your supervisor, right? So that dynamic is like always there underneath. 

Kate Grandbois: Right, right, right. Um, and in general, a supervision, a supervisor's job is to provide some accountability for a best possible service in your, mm-hmm.

In your environment. So growth and goal setting is usually set by an administrator or an institution rather than your own personally identified areas of growth. Um, you're usually assessed by a supervisor by some structured means with some, um, administratively identified definition. Um, not everyone has the experience of having a mentor, but almost everybody has the experience of having a supervisor.

So I think if you're [00:12:00] one of those individuals that, you know, you don't feel like you've had a professional mentor, thinking of your supervisor in that evaluative role, depending on what kind of feedback you're getting, might, I mean, the whole point of this episode is clearing up those ZI feelings, and we we're gonna get into that a little bit deeper, but understanding the nature of that relationship is, is really important.

Um, supervision is, and the point of this webinar was, um, discussing supervision and mentoring throughout the career journey, right? So all of us are in a different place in our careers. And, uh, gene Blosser describes these as career launchers, mid-career professionals, um, and then later career professionals.

And there was one more that I didn't write down because, um, but it, there are a point being there are varying degrees of, of maturity in your career based on how many years ago you graduated. And supervision is a really great strategy for a career launcher, meaning somebody who has recently [00:13:00] graduated out of, um, graduate school because you're really trying to foster and shape independence of skills.

And this is why ASHA gives us a CF supervisor more often than not. 

Announcer: Mm-hmm. 

Kate Grandbois: You know, during your CF period. Um, supervision is really good for establishing quality control, so making sure that you have varying levels of clinical strength in your institution. And don't forget, good supervisors can also serve a mentoring capacity, even though that may not be their primary objective.

Amy Wonkka: Well, and I think too, when you think about quality control, you want your clients to know that to, to some degree, no matter who they're seeing. Let's say you have a, you run a practice if you, if you're running a private practice, you want a certain degree of quality control so that your, your brand is maintained, right?

You people come in and they see Kate and Kate's great, and then they get transferred to Amy. You want Amy to be of similar. Similar quality as Kate, so that quality. And of course, as a [00:14:00] private practice 

Kate Grandbois: owner, I'm thinking of liability. Mm-hmm. You also don't want, you want, you don't want somebody to go rogue, do something totally idiotic, and then your practice, or you're a hospital or you're, somebody gets sued for it.

So there are a lot of reasons why we have supervisors to give us those bumps in the, you know, um, bumpers in the road. The, so that's, that's the supervisory landscape. Thinking about the mentoring landscape. So not everybody has the professional mentorship experience. Um, and the nature of that experience is much more nurturing.

It's a one-to-one relationship. You're not necessarily being evaluated as much as you are working towards self-directed goals. Um. A mentor can help put professional development plans together by helping you set those goals, helping you identify your own personal skills that are strengths, helping you identify ways to target and improve upon goal upon areas where you don't feel like those are your strengths.

And another really important piece of [00:15:00] mentorship, I think, is encouraging self-evaluation. So make looking into your own clinical skills, self-evaluating what the outcomes of your clinicals, of your goals are, ba and identifying ways that you can move towards achieving your professional goals. Um, 

Amy Wonkka: I think another piece for me, having acted in a mentorship capacity is.

I feel like when you're in that, when you're wearing a mentor hat, you're also a bit more focused on the whole person. Mm-hmm. So you also might look at things like work-life balance and just, you know, checking in with somebody and making sure that they're managing all of those pieces. Stress management where, you know, kind of where do you fit on the continuum of stress?

Do you need support in other areas that aren't necessarily as job directed? I think, you know, for newer, newer speech pathologists, you know, we have a lot of licenses to maintain and everybody's on a different [00:16:00] certification, maintenance interval, and you know, how do you keep track of all of that just to kind of some general organizational pieces.

So I think mentoring feels a bit more holistic to me. 

Kate Grandbois: Totally. And I, I, the other piece of it I think is a holistic in the way that they can help you. Mentors can really help you make decisions. So, and it might not be a decision about work, or it might be a decision about how work, you know, your work and your home life balance, or a difficult peer relationship that you have, or a difficult, you know, situation that you have in your workplace.

Mentors really can work very much as a sounding board to help you make some of those, um, decisions and think critically about your decision making in your workplace. I know I'm about to, I'm about to open a, a small, a small secret to people who don't know us, but e and I met as she was sort of my very informal mentor and it got, it got to a point where I decided I couldn't make any decisions in my life without asking Amy first.[00:17:00] 

So I started calling her Joe because that was the vice president and she was the vice president of all my decisions. So there's, there are, this is just an example. The many, many ways 

Amy Wonkka: are you so mad that I said that 

Kate Grandbois: example of the many, many ways that mentorship can be informal, it can be formal, but the.

That was a, that example was supposed to highlight the, you're laughing so hard. I love it. That example was supposed to highlight the critical decision making and how a mentor can really serve as a really wonderful sounding board for critical thinking. I. For sure. Okay, moving on. Um, mentors are also advocates.

So a mentor is gonna advocate for you to grow and move into doing something that you wanna do, even if it doesn't necessarily serve the, um, the purpose of where you are working. You know, currently in your organization. They can help you navigate work culture, [00:18:00] establish successful working relationships, and navigate difficult working relationships.

And, um, the other really nice thing about a mentor mentee relationship, you're still laughing. I'm still, it's a very, very giggly one's. Cool. We're gonna work through it. That's good. So the other, um, the other nice thing about a mentor mentee relationship is that mentees can contribute as much to a mentor as a, as the other way around.

And, and I think that that's a really, it's a really good thing to know. And that's, again, thinking about all the icky feelings and the feedback that you're getting. I have, I am very, I, this is not coming from literature. This is coming from me personally and my experiences. Being able to talk openly with your supervisor or your mentor about the feedback that you are getting or not getting is very, very important.

That relationship and that dis and that communication and trust is really, really important. Point being that it should never be just the mentor or the supervisor [00:19:00] delineating feedback. There should be an open channel that goes both ways. And I say that especially in the mentor mentee relationship. Um, I, 

Amy Wonkka: I would agree with that very much in, in my framework.

Feedback is something is, is like a term that I would assign to supervisors. I feel like mentees and mentors have a dialogue more so, um, where supervisors and subordinates have more of that feedback role. That's probably just semantics on my part, but that's how I separate it in my brain. 

Kate Grandbois: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think, you know, just like it's comes down to the organization's, I mean, a supervisor is generally that's their job is to evaluate you based on some guidelines set by your organization. So I think that makes perfect sense. Um, mentor mentee relationships can be formal or they can be super unstructured, like b and a queer friendships that's blossomed over the years that had no tructure at all.

Um, and a formalized, but a formalized mentor program, uh, like if you [00:20:00] have a formal mentor program in your workspace or the Ashes step mentor program. There is generally an orientation. Um, you establish some, not rules, but guidelines at the beginning with your mentee or mentor about how the relationship is going to work, how frequently you're going to meet, what the goals are that you wanna work on, how you're gonna resolve problems when they arise, how you plan for the future.

Um, and you, you know, take a formal minute to identify responsibilities of both parties. 

Amy Wonkka: Well in some of that, when I've been involved in more formal mentor programs, sometimes there's even like planning forms, like actual forms that you'll complete either separately or together, kind of an interview, structured interview form or, uh, you know, Likert scale type thing that people are filling out to just help identify how, and I think back to what you were saying about the supervision webinar that you did, um, thinking about the mentor mentee relationship in that same criteria, right?

Somebody who's brand new to the field is going to [00:21:00] be looking for a bit more of a structured dynamic within the mentor mentee relationship. Somebody who is later developing in the field may be looking, um, for more independence and sort of more of that sounding board. So sort of as a mentor, moving along that continuum and giving people the support that they need, that's the just right support in time, um, is really important.

Kate Grandbois: You may, that word continuum made me think of something else too. So in that continuum of a role and dynamic where you have, you know, a subordinate quote subordinate and a supervisor, peer mentorship is also something that is very beneficial and wonderful. And this can often happen when the two individuals have been in the field for the same period of time, and they're working very much as peers, but one individual has an area of expertise that the other one doesn't.

And so, you know, this, this concept of mentorship can really take many, many forms. Um, one of the best things that I learned through this webinar and another pieces of literature that we read for this episode, um, are that there [00:22:00] are a lot of benefits to mentorship that I think don't get the credit that they deserve.

What are they? Oh, what, what are they? Um, mentorship has an impact on staffing, which I wasn't surprised to to know, but it was really sort of nice to see it written in the literature. Mm-hmm. And spoken out of someone else's mouth. Um, so mentorship can improve staff shortages. Um, it can identify the need for additional qualified staff.

It can encourage new employees to take an initiative. It can help new employees transition into the workspace outside of orientation, which is really wonderful. It's really good for staff recruitment and retention. Um. What indiv organizations that have internal mentorship programs have higher levels of satisfaction among employees, which is awesome.

Um, so if you're listening to this, if you're, if you're down with the idea of mentorship and you think it sounds like a good idea, I would encourage you to take this literature to your [00:23:00] administration and advocate for some form of peer mentorship or bringing in an external expert or someone with a different set of clinical skills to mentor you in a growth area.

Um, it's really good for an organization as a whole. That's all. No, that's good. Those are all good things. Um, but objective two. Yeah. I think that brings us to learning objective number two. We're so on time today. We're, we're doing strategies and timers. We, so we're a hot, but at the same time, are we also, are we a hot mess today also?

No. Yes. No, we're not a hot 

Announcer: mess. 

Kate Grandbois: So learning objective number two, describe the importance of critical feedback. And I think going into writing this episode, I sort of made the assumption, oh, everybody needs critical feedback. How can you grow if you don't know what's wrong? How, and you can't be objective about yourself.

That seems like, right. Somebody's not pointing out all the things that are wrong with you. Right. How do you, how can you ever flourish? [00:24:00] How can you flourish if you don't have someone, you know, I don't know, beat you down? Yeah, exactly. So I think going through the literature, I did learn quite a bit and I was wrong, and I am excited to share all of this with everyone.

Um, so as we sort of discussed, the feedback that you receive is very influenced by the nature of the relationship that you have with the person who's giving you feedback. Um, and the delivery of the feedback and the receipt of that feedback will differ significantly based on the context of that relationship and how that feedback was delivered.

Um, and interestingly, a lot of the literature that I reviewed asked the general question, is it even necessary to get critical feedback? This is such a good question. Does it even improve job performance? Or it, is it just, or is this just like some construct that we've held onto from a bajillion years ago and never really?

Well, fortunately we work in the hard sciences in the, in the hard sciences numbers. Somebody asked this. [00:25:00] Yeah, we crunch numbers. Somebody crunch numbers. Somebody out there in the universe asked this question in a research paper and. It varies. So the, the I I'm, I'm gonna save the takeaways after we review some of the literature and research that I reviewed.

Um, first of all, feedback comes in a lot of different names, depending on which literature you read. It can be described as critical feedback, negative feedback, performance feedback. And the point of feedback, if you're gonna bother getting it or giving it, is that it's effective, which means that, generally speaking, it would mean it would result in some sort of behavior change on the part of the mentee or the supervisee, right?

That's the whole point of delivering feedback. It's 

Amy Wonkka: making me think about the episode that we did on partner training, because that's the whole point in partner training is that there would be some type trains of behavior change in the communication partner that resulted in a [00:26:00] behavior change for the person who uses A a C.

Totally. So, yes, that's That is the point. The point is like to get some actionable results, right? Not just to be a meanie or receive somebody's. Nobody 

Kate Grandbois: wants to be a poopy pants in their office and like just be mean to everybody and like deliver this feedback. I mean, unfortunately there again in our field, a lot of people get promoted based on clinical skills instead of leadership skills.

And I think that there is a lot of people who aren't maybe intentionally being poopy pants, but delivering feedback in a way that feels more icky than it needs to feel. Um, but back to the point, the general idea is effective. The general idea of feedback is to get some sort of behavior change on the part of the mentor, I mean on the part of the mentee or the supervisee.

So I went into two different fields of research to look at this. There's, 'cause there's a lot of people out there researching feedback. I read a handful of articles out of the field of psychology and I read a handful of articles out of the field of, um, organizational behavior management, which [00:27:00] is short for, which is the acronym is OBM.

OBM stands for Organizational Behavior Management and it's a subdivision of the field of a BA that looks at applying principles of applied behavior analysis to organizational management. Right. Generally speaking, I give 

Amy Wonkka: use thumbs up. I was looking for some up from the internet. 

Kate Grandbois: I valid, I needed some validation there from my mentor.

Um, okay. So, um, from the field of psychology, there is a woman named Lisa Steelman, um, out of the, out of Florida Institute of Technology who has written a lot on this subject and her literature was really, really helpful. She introduces the idea that it's not the feedback itself, but the feedback environment.

So that's interesting. Yeah. The environment in which you get feedback is really going to determine the efficacy of that feedback. There's even a feedback environment scale that she published, um, with Paul Levy and Andrea Snell, [00:28:00] um, that, that reference is on our website. And what, what types of things does that look at?

Oh, we will go through those. We will go through these items. I'm so excited to learn. We're getting there. Um, Lisa Steelman wrote another article with Kelly Ow, Ru Ruski. I always apologized to you, Kelly Kelly Ruski. Um, and in 2003, they published an article together that sort of objectively discusses all of these icky feelings.

And this is a direct quote. The effects of feedback are variable and in one third of cases, feedback has a negative result. So people are given. Yeah, people are given the feedback and not only is there not effective behavior change, but there is a negative outcome from having delivered the feedback negative.

That's opposite. The opposite, right. Opposite of what we want, right? Exactly. So negative performance appraisal feedback is less accepted by the mentee or supervisee and less perce and perceived as less accurate [00:29:00] than positive performance appraisal feedback, which means that objectively speaking, if somebody tells you you're doing something that wrong or they want you to do things differently, that negative feedback is not accepted.

And it's considered to be not true. It's considered to be totally inaccurate, versus you've done all of these things, I tell you really, really well, just how 

Amy Wonkka: awesome you are, 

Kate Grandbois: right? So, yeah. So often, because it has these negative outcomes, supervisors and mentors, people, they avoid it. And it's called the mum effect.

They even make MUM, yes. Like mum's the word, like mum's the word. Um, and often managers, supervisors, mentors avoid giving the critical or negative performance feedback because of fear of personal repercussions. Or they're afraid that the feedback is gonna be outright rejected or that negative feelings towards the mentor or supervisor will persist in the workplace.

So oftentimes. The circle goes [00:30:00] around and around, um, and supervisors will avoid giving the feedback, even though in this article they found data that they recited data that suggests that people still want the feedback. So people want the feedback, but don't go out and get it for all of these other variables.

And then the supervisors don't give the feedback because they're afraid of all of these negative repercussions. And there's all these different components in that feedback environment that create this sort of horrible circle of, of an inaction. 

Amy Wonkka: I'm sure this wasn't covered in the article, but it does make me wonder, like, do the people really want the feedback or do the people just 

Kate Grandbois: think that they want the feedback?

So ego is a part of it. They do mention that, you know, they think that they want the feedback, but they don't really wanna have their feelings hurt. They don't want all the icky feelings, all of those other kinds of things. So really they just, they want positive feedback. Possibly. Possibly. But they, they, they cited that there was evidence that people wanted critical feedback, but don't seek it out for a handful of other [00:31:00] reasons.

Could be the nature of the relationship with the supervisor, the structure. We're gonna get into all, there's all of these different components that sort of play into this very complex, um, interplay of variables. Um. Oftentimes supervisors and mentors will deflate or inflate feedback to try and reduce these negative outcomes.

Managers who provide negative feedback, they are often seen as biased and insensitive. That's a quote, um, from their on page seven of their 2004 article, the authors propose that the feedback alone is not what creates the negative reaction, but that it's the relationship feedback. There are other contextual moderators that have this ne, that create all of these negative outcomes.

Amy Wonkka: That, that, like, when you think about it and like deconstruct it, that makes a lot of sense, right? Like, yeah, like we, we disagree. Sometimes we disagree. The two of us, yes, we disagree often, but we fight about things. But it, but it feels different, right? It feels different because we have this existing relationship.

Mm-hmm. So it's one thing to get critical feedback from [00:32:00] somebody who feels. Warm and close to you than it is like some person who maybe like has this power differential or you don't have a, 

Kate Grandbois: it's in control of your raise. 

Amy Wonkka: Yeah. There's a 

Kate Grandbois: whole bunch of variables, so, yeah, that 

Amy Wonkka: makes sense to me. 

Kate Grandbois: Yeah. One of, so they've identified a handful of variables that we're gonna go over.

So the first is supervisor credibility. The second is feedback quality, so the quality of the feedback and how it was delivered. And I think it's really important to unpack each of those, to really take a look at what, what could be giving you all the icky feelings. It probably something either in the relationship or in the relationship or in one of these variables.

Um, so credibility. What makes, what makes a, a feedback credible. So 

Amy Wonkka: a, a feedback. A feedback. Did you just call it a, 

Announcer: that's like a 

Amy Wonkka: football thing almost, right? There's a linebacker that's football. Feedback is 

Kate Grandbois: credible if the source has expertise and [00:33:00] trustworthiness. And I think that is super important. I have worked in places where the super, you say don't tell the supervisor 'cause she's gonna tell so and so when they go, when they go out for cocktails.

Mm-hmm. There has to be an element of trustworthiness and expertise. The feedback has also has to be related to knowledge of the job requirements, knowledge of the actual job performance, and an ability to judge that performance. I had a friend who worked in another job where the supervisor kept giving her feedback and they weren't even on site.

They heard it through the grapevine. That's absolutely not credible at feedback at all. 

Amy Wonkka: I, I think another piece that comes up against that often for speech pathologists, because we are onesies or we're part, we're a small part of a larger department, whether it's in a school or an outpatient setting, oftentimes the people giving you the feedback aren't, aren't speech pathologists.

Kate Grandbois: Yes, that's also very true. They're administrators or they're in a different allied health profession. Mm-hmm. [00:34:00] Um, and that can also be really difficult and negatively impact credibility. Um, another piece was the quality of the feedback. So quality feedback is something that is consistent across time. It's very specific, it's perceived as useful, and it does not vary with mood, the relationship with the individual or observational opportunity.

And I think that's also really, really important. So if you are in a situation where the quality of the feedback is variable based on any other variable in your work environment or the relationships that you have with people, or it's really general, like you're just not doing a good job. So and so told me that, you know, you're know, your, your notes are really subpar.

Well, not only that's low quality. 'cause not only is that not specific, it's not useful. What about my notes aren't good? Do I need my objectives to be more measurable? Do I, do I need my data to be clearer? Is there an issue with the [00:35:00] funding source on the way I'm writing my notes? 

Amy Wonkka: Well, and to connect that back to the point that you were making earlier, that the purpose of feedback is to see an effect, to see a specific change.

If you're not giving that specific feedback, yes. Then your supervisee is not sure what to change to make it better. If they already aren't doing it, chances are they don't know what they should be doing. Right? So we need to give them specific actionable 

Kate Grandbois: steps. And do you see how that also loops into the credibility if your supervisor is not a credible source because they're not a speech pathologist and they then they can't give you direct specific feedback about your documentation or about your clinical skills, or 

Amy Wonkka: potentially they, they could if you have those, those formalized procedures in place.

So perhaps you work in an agency. So for those of you who are interested in getting a mentoring program or interested in modifying your existing supervisory process in your place of employment, you know, earlier in the podcast when you were referencing. Having those [00:36:00] specific criteria written down and delineated.

That's important too, right? If all of those things are specifically delineated, then you're able to say, oh, you're not including these four required components in the notes, and we need that for funding. And I can see that even though I'm a OT or you know, some other person who's not in your field.

Totally. 

Kate Grandbois: So again, just to review the variables that have a big impact on feedback and how it's perceived and all the icky feelings, supervisor, credibility, feedback, quality. And the last was feedback delivery. So they've, the authors defined feedback delivery as the perception of the sources intentions.

So this again goes back to the relationship. I have had a sup, I have had. Great supervisors, and I've had not so great supervisors. And in the instances where the feedback felt really, really icky, the intentions of the feedback were not to grow me as a professional or give me really useful feedback so that I could better my clinical skills.

Sometimes those icky feelings were because the [00:37:00] person wa had an ego trip or wanted to make or wanted me to not succeed so that they could continue to look like they had all of the better ideas than me. Um, the more considerate feedback is, the more likely it is that it will be well received. So is the feedback delivered rudely or in an unprofessional way?

What intentions, generally speaking are being conveyed by that feedback? 

Amy Wonkka: Well, and another point too, back to the beginning, where critical feedback isn't necessarily necessary. Perhaps maybe some people are giving this, giving this critical, you know, strong feedback because they feel like that's what they're supposed to do in their role as supervisor.

So that's another piece, you know, that might be influencing the delivery. And 

Kate Grandbois: in which case you should make counterproductive. You should tell them to listen to this episode so that they understand. Yes, exactly. There's so much literature about this. It was hard to, I was like, skimming the surface. You know, we are not mentorship and, and leadership experts, but, you know, a couple of [00:38:00] hours of reading and there is clearly a wealth of information out there.

So what about 

Amy Wonkka: some of 

Kate Grandbois: those other variables that were in that article? Right. So this article had. It was those three that had a really big impact on the, how the feedback was received in the workplace, which is all those icky feelings, right? And there, but there are other variables that contribute to that contextual feedback environment that will also impact how the feedback is received.

One is, um, source availability. So how often do you get the feedback, the source of your feedback? Are they available? Right after something happens that needs to be corrected, or does your supervisor keep a notebook and then dump it all on you in March? Right before your bo, right before your raises are due.

Right. So what is the availability of the source of your feedback? Is it somebody who you work really closely with and you can cultivate a relationship with [00:39:00] them and get, get critical feedback as it as things happen? Or is it a situation where the they're not even on site and they're not even available to you?

Another, um, really interesting variable that I loved was how is, how is feedback seeking promoted? So are you encouraged to seek feedback? This is getting that sort of that off breaking that circle of the person not asking for feedback and then the supervisor not giving the feedback. Research suggests that individuals report a desire for the feedback, but due to ego and other variables, they just don't take the extra step to get it.

And if you have a relationship with your supervisor or mentor where they are encouraging you and asking you regularly how are you feeling about things? Do you feel independent in this area? I noticed that X, Y, and Z, you could maybe tweak those things, but otherwise you're doing a really great job. Do you feel like you need me to [00:40:00] step in and tell you this on a weekly basis, a monthly basis, a quarterly basis?

Or are you feeling independent? There can be some really. Nice and interesting political shifts there. Sometimes if you have someone who is trying to give you feedback when you don't want it. Mm-hmm. And maybe you need it, and maybe this is a time where you really have to reflect internally and keep your ego in check and acknowledge that you're working in a clinical space and nobody's perfect and there's always room for learning.

So getting the critical feedback is not a, a jab on your personal, on your personal skills. Um, but I think it's generally speaking a really good, it's a really good idea for your supervisor or your mentor to encourage you to seek the feedback that that is not an admission of weakness. Asking for feedback makes you a stronger clinician, and it's a sign of professional maturity.

I cannot say that enough. Asking for feedback is a sign of professional maturity. Whenever I go to hire someone, it's one of my biggest concerns is hiring [00:41:00] somebody who really has a hard time. Having some of these difficult conversations, professional maturity and asking for feedback is really important.

It's a sign of strength. It's not a sign of weakness. You don't have to be afraid that you don't know everything. Nobody knows everything. Um, whether or not the feedback is favorable or unfavorable is another really big variable, and that doesn't necessarily mean that it's that you liked the feedback or you didn't like the feedback.

Unfavorable feedback versus favorable feedback has more to do with the complex process and of how frequently the negative feedback is given versus the positive feedback. Now, I know that's like a sort of, it was a lot of words in one sentence, but basically it sort of. Easy to understand. You don't wanna be in a position where you're constantly getting criticized and never being told what's clin, what Nobody wants to live in a world full of punishment and no reinforcement, right?

You have to be given some pats on the back and be feel encouraged, [00:42:00] like you're working towards your goals and you're making all of this progress instead of just always being told that you're not doing the right thing. 

Amy Wonkka: And I think that there is some ratio out there, which I can't remember right now, but I wanna, I wanna say you, you don't want any more than like one piece of critical feedback to three or four pieces of positive feedback, something like that.

Does that ring a bell for you at all? No, but it sounds about right because I think you, you really do, like when you think about. How somebody feels about you. If somebody's always telling you things about how you're not doing a great job. Like eventually you come to associate that person, even if you're not really aware, you're like, oh, that person tells me what a bad job I'm doing.

Kate Grandbois: Yeah, exactly. Um, and it's also what, that's sort of a good segue into the final variable out of these, the set of articles was how satisfied are you with it? Mm-hmm. So being satisfied with it doesn't mean that you were necessarily told that you did a good job. You can be very satisfied with critical feedback.

Um, but it's the perception of how useful the [00:43:00] feedback is and how useful it was when you were told that X, y, and Z needs to be changed in the future. Um, and it can't be redundant. Has anybody ever gotten multiple critic the same criticism from multiple sources? Have that, has it ever happened to you? It's not a good, that's not a good feeling.

Un unless it's like, you're doing great. It reminds me of, um, that movie. Office space. Oh, that movie. Do you remember that movie when they beat up the printer with the bat? Yes. You got those TPS reports and like a different boss comes by every 15 minutes asking for the TPS reports. That's exactly what that is.

And if you have a seen office space, you should, oh God, you ha, it's so, so, so good. Um, and so, you know, I think that's another really important, it's another really important variable. The last one is motivation to use the feedback. So how motivated are you to integrate what you're hearing? If you have no motivation, that's a conversation you should probably have with yourself.

If you are not interested at all in, [00:44:00] in reading a lot of this or using, integrating a lot of this feedback, you should definitely. Consider a lot of those variables. Um, that was pretty much the psychology research in a nutshell. I think that it's really important to consider each of these variables, and if you're having a lot of icky feelings in these conversations with your supervisor, unpacking what variables are contributing to those icky feelings, because chances are that envi, that feedback context and that feedback environment is a skew in some, in some capacity.

Okay, so let's put psychology on the shelf for a second and talk about OBM. So, in from the field of OBM, which is again, organizational behavior management, they have so much research, testing the different components of feedback. So they have research on accuracy of feedback. So telling someone specifically that they did something wrong versus.

Something [00:45:00] that isn't quite true and whether or not that has an impact on performance. That was Palmer Johnson and Johnson 2015. Um, and according to their research, the accuracy of the feedback doesn't really matter. Oh, that's interesting. Giving the feedback in and of itself had an impact on staff. There was another research article by Arco 2008 that giving verbal feedback is as effective as verbal and written feedback.

So there are, there, when you're in a work environment where you have a opportunity to give just verbal, or verbal and written according to their research, verbal feedback is as effective as verbal and written feedback together. According to Cook and Dixon in 2006, verbal feedback is as effective as verbal P as verbal feedback with graphic feedback.

So they did an, they did an experiment where the participants had verbal feedback and then another condition where they were given verbal [00:46:00] feedback plus a graph 

Amy Wonkka: of their feedback. You, you did such a great job. Here's all the times you completed your reports on time. 

Kate Grandbois: Exactly. But then they added another condition where they gave a monetary lottery bonus based on in conjunction with the verbal feedback and the graph, and that was the most effective.

So what does that tell us? Money works. Money. Oh yeah. Money is a powerful reinforcer. So, and when you're talking about, again, the point of feedback is to have a positive outcome, uh, or some sort of behavior change in your staff based on that literature. The monetary bonus, the monetary lottery bonus was the, was more effective than the verbal feedback by itself.

Um, another set of, um, authors Bell Kazar, Hopkins and Suarez in 1985. So I was, I was a hot four years old. 

Amy Wonkka: I was older than four years old, [00:47:00] 

Kate Grandbois: so that was funny. Um, what's interesting about their research is that they found that feedback in and of itself does not uniformly improve performance. Just like telling someone something about their performance doesn't change it.

What you have to ha the quality of the feedback matters. So adding a goal procedure or setting goals with the individual had positive effects on the feedback. And there are some characteristics of feedback that are more as, that are more associated with improved performance than others. So it, in other words, just giving the feedback doesn't matter.

You have to have these very specific components. I'm pretty sure that's like a, that was like one of the first, I guess I really shouldn't say that. I don't know, but it's like the basis of a lot of these, these additional research articles, is that just the fee, just giving feedback doesn't do it. You have to.

You have to be, and it's that, I think this is parallel with the, what we learned from the psychology literature also is that you have [00:48:00] to really consider all of these additional variables. You can't just like blurt something out to someone. You can't, the, the quality of the feedback and the components of the feedback really matter.

Amy Wonkka: Well, and I think when you're setting, if you're setting goals, you're inherently having specific feedback, right? Yeah. So back to that psychology article, you're, you have to have something, some degree of specificity if you're setting a goal about it. For sure. Anyway, 

Kate Grandbois: so the, to answer your original question, is feedback even really necessary?

I think the answer is yes, but kind of not. Not all feedback is created equal. It's a really complex and dynamic process that involves a lot of different factors. And it is a key component, but it is a key component of behavior change. Behavior change. Um, so keeping in mind that we're a clinical field and we're expected to continue to learn, we are required to do 30 CEUs every three years or 32 if you're A, B, B, C, B, A every two years.

Because we're expected to always [00:49:00] continue to learn and grow. I think it's very likely that there's always going to be a part of your repertoire where that you of skills that you're trying to grow. So feedback is, you know, it's here to stay, it's in the literature. So we can sort of answer that question and put it to bed.

So moving on to learning objective number three. Um, identifying strategies for receiving critical feedback. I think that it's fair to say that all of those components from the fields of psychology and OBM are related to the icky feelings, right? You can't dismantle all the icky feelings until you can really see the variables that are contributing factors to those icky feelings.

Some of them might be internal related to your own sense of self or your own goals, or your own relationship with your mentor. Some of it might be contextual in terms of your workplace or your, your supervisor's management style. Um, I think in terms of dismantling some of the icky feelings, identifying some of those variables is a really [00:50:00] important first step.

So, in terms of literature and strategies, we're having a laughing fit. We're gonna pull it together. It's a sleepover party. I dunno. I 

Amy Wonkka: dunno why, like a sleepover party as a child. It's a child. Oh, okay. Right. Okay. 

Kate Grandbois: It's Friday. That's why it's because it's a Friday. Okay. So in terms of. The strategies and what the literature said about the strategies.

Now I'm super excited about this. I found an article that was the most amazing article I have read. Love it. Why are you laughing? You laugh when I read. 

Amy Wonkka: I love it. I love that you're laughing. 

Kate Grandbois: You laugh when I read. Okay. This article. So if you are a frequent flyer of the SLP Nerd Cast, you are aware that we have reviewed Acceptance Commitment Therapy Act, also referred to as act.

For those of you who have not heard our previous episodes on act, highly, highly, highly encourage it. Act is an evidenced-based scientific way to better manage. [00:51:00] Stress, anxiety and icky feelings. Right? So of course I had to look and see what the literature said about ACT and critical feedback. And I found this great article by Bingo Dixon and Linus from 2020 called Intervention Enhancing Effects of Acceptance and Commitment Training on Performance Feedback for Direct Support, professional Work performance, stress, work performance, stress and job satisfaction.

Super Long Title. 

Announcer: Mm-hmm. 

Kate Grandbois: It was published in Behavior Analysis and Practice and essentially these were direct support professionals in a clinical environment. And later in the article they discussed a little bit of physical therapy that they were doing. So I am led to believe that they were some sort of direct, direct therapeutic staff, um, in as who were the participants.

So. The, we're not gonna really go into the review of what ACT is, but I think [00:52:00] for the understanding, the beauty of this article, you have to understand some of the components. Um, there are several components of ACT that are very helpful when dealing with icky feelings. One is practicing acceptance, which promotes willingness to experience life's events as they occur, including pleasant and uncomfortable events.

So, accepting things, accepting the events around you, practicing present moment awareness, which is practicing the awareness of events as they occur without judgment. Practicing valued living, which is identifying the outcomes of purposeful actions that have meaningful meaning to you, and taking committed actions.

So continual development of behavioral, your own behavioral patterns that are in line with your chosen values. Now, act in and of itself has six components. The, they're all amazing, they're all wonderful. You really can't separate them. It's not that these four are separate from the rest of them, but in terms of the outcomes of this article, these were the components that the authors [00:53:00] felt were related to their results.

So what does this research say? There were participants that were, they were in a human services organization. Organization. They were given direct verbal feedback and written feedback about their performance three times a week, which is a lot. Then they were given an ACT training on acceptance, present moment awareness, valued living, committed action, diffusion, all of these other components of the six Compo HEXA FLEXIVE Act.

They were given act, given ACT training three, after they were given three weeks of direct verbal and written feedback. And then they were given the ACT training in conjunction with verbal and written feedback and practicing act in the workplace. And combining ACT strategies was highly effective in improving performance on the job, which in this case was increased time spent in active treatment, doing active treatment with the, with the clients in the, in the facility.

Interestingly, the staff did not [00:54:00] report less stress, but they did increase direct therapy time without increased stress, which is really interesting. Yeah, so they were better at their jobs. They participated more with their clients without adding additional stress. The authors of the research article speculate that the findings were, had some really interesting po.

There were some interesting possibilities. They suggest that the mindfulness activities helped people discriminate between things in their environment that were helpful, language in their environment, internal language. That was helpful and. We're an internal language that was not helpful. So for example, this is internal roles.

I'm a bad worker, I'm not time efficient, I'm never gonna improve here. Practicing mindfulness activities helped people discriminate and identify those verbal scripts, which are in behavioral terms is maladaptive, verbal contingencies. But we're not gonna go into all of that long jargony something 'cause no one will [00:55:00] understand what we're talking about.

They also suspect that practicing committed action was guided by work-related. Practicing committed action that was guided by work-related values may have made it more likely that the staff engaged in more adaptive work related behavior. So in other words, by practicing act at work, they were encouraged to identify their own professional values and.

By identifying their own professional de values, it's more likely that they had more adaptive work behaviors in the work, work related behavior in the workplace, which I thought was really, really interesting. 

Amy Wonkka: Well, and I think it's interesting 'cause having done the episode with ACT and just thinking about values more broadly, I think, you know, to apply that to specific environments, like the work environment could be really helpful because then you may consider specific values that are meaningful for you in one environment that aren't necessarily part of your [00:56:00] broader set of values.

Kate Grandbois: Mm-hmm. Uh, so I could see how that would be helpful. Totally. Um. They suspect that components of act, overall, the overall components of ACT increased the effectiveness of the feedback that was given. And then working through your own work related values allowed participants to see the work related values of, of the organization so that they could see their own behaviors as in line with the organization at large.

Amy Wonkka: So having worked in a lot of different environments, one thing that was interesting for me in reading that, sorry, it's my dog. Um. I'm able, there she is, and was thinking about every organization really does tend to have their set of organizational values and trying to map your professional values on top of those organizational values.

I could see how that could be super helpful. 

Kate Grandbois: Right? So if you're having icky feelings because you're having an internal dialogue that's like, this place sucks. I hate this place. [00:57:00] They don't do this, they don't do that. If you have an opportunity to sort of step back, reflect, and work through identifying your professional values, how they may or may not be aligned with your workplace's values can be a really eye-opening experience.

And maybe there is reason for that internal dialogue or not, and you're grumpy because X, y, and Z happened. Um, I think what I loved so much about this article was, I mean, act as an evidence-based. You know, an evidence-based treatment for a whole host of issues that we have reviewed here before. Um, but in short, using ACT related strategies to identify work-related values allows you to take committed action towards your values and use mindfulness activities and acceptance to move through all of those icky feelings related to receiving unwanted feedback.

So it's sort of the perfect package. You have a handful of tools to help you deal with the icky, icky feelings, [00:58:00] and you have a handful of tools to help you move forward as a clinician towards your own, personally identified work related values. I absolutely love this article. The reference is on our website.

I highly encourage anybody and everybody to read it and learn more about act. Um, I think using ACT and some of these other resources to identify your professional goals and address your ego is really important. Um, it will give you. A little bit of inform, I think it will give you a little bit of insight into how your feedback is delivered and the relationship that you have with that feedback and your own reactions to that feedback.

Because at the end of the day, there are a lot of things that we can't control. We can't control who our supervisor is. We can't control the, the, you know, guidelines of our organizations and work environments. Um, there's a lot of things out of our control in the feedback landscape and I think, but, [00:59:00] so in order to sort of move through some of these icky feelings, there are some things that we can control.

We can identify our own professional goals. We can identify, you know, work towards dismantling some of the variables that we found that we discussed. I think it's really important to, um, you know, you can take some of these components from the psychological literature and dismantle some of those icky feelings with your su, with your supervisor related to, um, how often do you need the feedback?

How often can you seek out the feedback, having an open dialogue with your supervisor about how the feedback was delivered or how frequently you need it. Um, I think that those are all really important things. I think reflecting internally about how motivated you are to use the feedback. Is the feedback useful in terms of your own professional goals?

Have you even written professional goals? You know, if you're as, as, um, the first author that we discussed as Gene Boser says, you know, are [01:00:00] you a career launcher? Have you, are you just so excited to have your CS that you haven't really thought about what your specific professional goals are for six months or a year or 20 years?

Um. Have you reflected honestly about your own feedback seeking behavior? Is that something that you have control over that would improve upon your, um, your feedback experience, and all those icky feelings? I think 

Amy Wonkka: one other piece that could be helpful for people, especially if you are sort of earlier on in your career path, or if you're making a shift and you know, perhaps you've been working in dysphagia, geriatric settings and now you're moving to schools or something like that.

If you are not finding the support that you would hope you don't have somebody who's acting as a supervisor and a mentor sort of all in one, try and identify somebody who could be a mentor or seek out opportunities to form a mentor relationship, a mentor mentee [01:01:00] relationship. And you may have different people who serve in different capacities for you.

You might find, you know, if you're in a new work environment, you might have a mentor who is perhaps not in a similar job cohort, but can help kind of clue you into the culture of the workplace. Um, how, how things are done there. Kind of the unspoken rules, social rules of that work environment as well as a content mentor.

So those can also be really helpful and take a bit of the burden off of the supervisory relationships. So perhaps think about how you can create those scaffolds and supports for yourself in different ways. There's not just one way, there's not one right way to, to grow as a professional. 

Kate Grandbois: I totally agree.

Um, and that's sort of, I think nicely segues us into our last recommendation in terms of how to deal with these icky feelings is to advocate for yourself if you are having a horrible experience in your job setting or you notice So personal admission, my heart rate [01:02:00] goes up when I, when I'm like sitting, it's like waiting for your flu shot.

You're just like in your meeting and you're like, oh, somebody's gonna tell me that. How did I do this year? Am I gonna get my, your, your heart rate goes up, I start to sweat. Like there's this like anticipatory. Physiological reaction that I think I'm not alone. I think a lot of people have that. Um, there is nothing wrong with advocating for yourself and talking to your mentor and improving upon that relationship and talking to, you know, whoever it is about your icky feelings and the capacity in which you would like to receive feedback and how you would like to grow in your organization.

Um, if you don't have the best system in your work environment, talk to your administrators. Try and create change within your organization about how feedback is delivered. Talk to them about a peer mentoring program. Talk to them about. More frequently delivered feedback. Take some of these articles, take this literature, um, take the research and see if you can get some open conversations about [01:03:00] how feedback is delivered in your setting.

Amy Wonkka: Well, and I think you can use all of the pieces that we've learned about feedback here today about feedback, quality, feedback delivery, the feedback environment. When you're providing that feedback to your supervisor, it doesn't have to just be a one-way loop from totally person in a position of power to the person who's not in a position of power.

It's much, it's a much more helpful conversation if you're able to go to your supervisor and use some of these same strategies. You know, be consistent, be specific. Don't just say, this feedback process isn't working for me. Go with some specific examples. That that would be actionable for them, it could actually affect some change.

You know, I think it would be more helpful if I received more frequent feedback. I think it would be more helpful for me if I had the opportunity to work with a mentor. So by being, using some of these exact same components that you would want for feedback for yourself in providing feedback to your employer, I think is gonna make for a much more helpful and productive [01:04:00] discussion.

Kate Grandbois: Couldn't agree more. I think that pretty much wraps us up. Those are all the words that I had to say. We did a lot of laughing. It 

Amy Wonkka: was so good. I don't know why it's not like a hilarious topic, but I know, know it, it was today. 

Kate Grandbois: Silly, silly moods. Hope you guys have fun. Yes, I hope it, I hope this was entertaining.

Um, if you plan to use this episode for Asha Professional Development, please head over to our website, www dot lp nerd com. Question. Calm, calm, just, just kidding. Um, to purchase your certificate, you'll automatically receive a me an email with the learning quiz. Um, the learning needs, the, the learning assessment, and then a certificate will be automatically emailed to you if you pass.

If you are interested, if you listen to this in your car or you are doing laundry or cooking or something, there are handouts available for purchase for a dollar. If you would like to have this, all of this information written down, um, you can just go over to the episode page and, [01:05:00] um, purchase a handout with all of our notes and, and scribble scratch.

It's actually and a legitimate handout. It's not our, no, it's a proper 

Amy Wonkka: handout. It's, it's not handwritten. Don't worry. 

Kate Grandbois: Over 

Amy Wonkka: down there. Oh my goodness. 

Kate Grandbois: Think we need to just pull the plug on this one. Okay. Okay. Bye-Bye guys. Bye everyone. Thanks for joining us.