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Intro

Kate Grandbois: [00:00:00] Welcome to SLP Nerd Cast. I'm Kate. 

Amy Wonkka: And I'm Amy. And we appreciate you tuning in. Whether you're a speech language pathologist, a teacher, an EI provider, an ally and health professional, or a parent or guardian of somebody with speech and language needs, we hope this podcast will give you some valuable information and keep you at least a little entertained.

In our podcast, we review resources, literature, and discuss issues related to the field of speech language pathology. 

Kate Grandbois: You can use this podcast for ASHA Professional Development. Each of our episodes is equal to one certification maintenance hour, which is equal to 0.1 Asha CEUs. Well done. To learn more about the conversion between cmhs and CEUs, you can run along down to ASHA's.

Um, if you'd like to learn more about us and all of our other [00:01:00] episodes, visit us at our website, www.lpnerdcast.com. If you would like to use this episode to get credit through Asha as one, Asha CMH, you can purchase your certificates at our website. Hooray. I always say hooray. 

Amy Wonkka: You do, or za, I 

Kate Grandbois: I gotta come up with another H word.

It's getting old. 

Amy Wonkka: Get working on it. 

Kate Grandbois: It's getting stale. Anyway, thank you for joining us. Listeners. We had a really exciting day today. We had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Joy Za. Um, for those of you who don't know who she is, she is the creator of the SET Framework and we had been wanting to do an, uh, an episode about the set Framework for a while, and we contacted Dr.

Zaballa and she. Astoundingly, she agreed to join us and it was the most fun. No offense aim. It was one of the most fun times I've had making [00:02:00] this podcast. It was so great. 

Amy Wonkka: It was so good. Uh, Dr. Zaballa is not only an incredibly informed professional. She's also really gracious, really generous. Um, and she's developed the set framework, which I have to say has completely revolutionized the way that I conduct a, a c assessments and provide a a c services.

Kate Grandbois: Agreed, 200%. Um, Dr. Za, we're so excited for everybody to listen to this. She is really, she's one of those people who is just an amazing speaker. If anybody has an opportunity to see her speak, we highly recommend going. Um, she's so intelligent. She's just so smart and, and gracious, and. I'm just blubbering now.

It was just a really, really wonderful opportunity to speak with her and we're so excited to share it with all of you. Asha does require that we read our everybody's financial and [00:03:00] non-financial disclosures before we get started, so we'll just try and get those over with quickly. Uh, Dr. Joy Zabala is a member of the Quiet Leadership Team.

Quiet is QIAT. Um, we've also heard it pronounced ki um, uh, she is co-author of both Quality Indicators for Assistive Technology, a Comprehensive Guide to Assistive Technology Services, and the Quiet Companion, QIAT, both published by CAST Publishing. She receives proceeds from the sale of the publications.

Dr. Zaa is also an employee of Cast, uh, Kate, me. I am the owner, founder of Grand Watt Therapy and Consulting, LLC and co-founder of SLP Nerd Cast. Amy Wonka is an employee of a public school system and co-founder of SLP Nerd Cast Non-Financial. Kate and Amy are both members of Ashes Stick 12 and serve on the a a C advisory group from Massachusetts Advocates for Children.

Kate is a member of the Berkshire Association for Behavior Analysis and Therapy, mass, a BA, the Association for Behavior Analysis International and the [00:04:00] corresponding Speech Pathology and Applied Behavior Analysis special interest group. Um, Amy, do you wanna tell us a little bit about, um. Dr. Dr. Savala's history and, and her, her bio and all of that kind of stuff before we start.

Sure. 

Amy Wonkka: So, Dr. Za has been in the field of assistive technology for many years. Um, in addition to developing the set framework, I think she said 25 years ago, uh, she's also the director of technical assistance at cast, um, and she does a lot of work around Universal Design for Learning. So if you are interested in UDL and learning more about UDL, I would encourage you to check out the CAST website and 

Kate Grandbois: UDL standing for University, universal Design for Learning UDL.

Amy Wonkka: So sort of anticipating those barriers and then breaking down the barriers so that everybody can participate to the best of their ability as a general means of doing business. Um, so check out the CAST website, check out Dr. [00:05:00] Zale's website, check out the Dropbox that we'll be posting on our website. Um, and enjoy, enjoy learning from her.

Because we definitely did. We 

Kate Grandbois: definitely, we definitely did. We're so excited to share. So everyone enjoy, uh, an interview with Dr. Joy Zala. 

Amy Wonkka: We are so excited to welcome Dr. Joy Zala to come talk with us about the set framework accessibility universal design. Joy, welcome. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Thank you. It's lovely to be here. Um, I'm looking forward to, to our time together.

Kate Grandbois: We are so thrilled to have you as we already gushed for many, many minutes before we started recording this episode, your amount of minutes. 

Amy Wonkka: So one of our first questions for you, for our listeners who aren't familiar with the SET framework, the set framework, I think. For Kate and I both has really been a game changer [00:06:00] in the way that we not only conduct our a a C assessments, but also our ongoing consideration and support for the team around implementation.

For somebody who hasn't heard about the SET framework, can you tell us a little bit about what that is? 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Sure. Um, well, in, in its most basic sense, it's an acronym for Students Environments, tasks and Tools. When it first came out, it was really about, um, not seeing the kind of progress we hoped to see, even when we'd done a really good match between a student and a tool, and when we started talking about it, at some point we went from what's wrong to.

What's happening when it is making a difference, when we are seeing change. And what we began to, to hear come up in the conversation was that they were not only thinking about the student and the tool, but also about the environments in this, uh, where the student was typically learning and growing and uh, the tasks that [00:07:00] were a part of what they needed these tools for.

So that was sort of where the set framework came from. I was trying to explain to somebody, um, why that was important and I was writing on the whiteboard, gotta know about the student, gotta know about the environments, gotta know about the tasks, gotta know about the tools before you can choose the tools.

And he backed up and he said, why didn't you tell me that before? And it's like, we've been saying that for a long time. And he said. But I can, I can remember that. And I can understand it. And that's sort of the, sort of where it came from. So there's a lot more I can tell you though, about what it is for, besides that.

Amy Wonkka: Well, and, and I really wanna hear about that because I feel like as somebody who is conducting a, a c assessments and looking at implementation, learning about the set [00:08:00] framework was so empowering for me because it allowed me to give the environment and the tasks the importance that they have, that they're so important.

And when we are only doing an assessment, we're just doing a feature match based upon features related to the student or the communicator, and then the tools we are missing so much. We're missing so much. And, and we talk a lot about how. You can have the perfect tool, but if you fall apart on implementation, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if all these features match, they're paperweight. It becomes a paperweight. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Exactly. And, and too, too often, too often it did. So to really, the, the other piece about, about the framework and really, um, um. Big important reason was this whole notion of, uh, assistive technology specialists who are supposed to know the answers to everything.

Mm-hmm. And I, when someone would say, oh, um, the, the assistive technology specialist arrived, she's gonna tell us what to do, [00:09:00] and I would sort of look over my shoulder, like, who in the world could they be talking to that's gonna know all of these answers? And, and you'd hear people say, well, I can't really participate in this discussion because I don't know anything about technology.

Or I don't, you know, and this was a long time ago, um, when tech, there were not a lot of technology users in the world. I mean, obviously there were, but these, this was in the Apple two E days, you know? Mm-hmm. So, uh. And, and so I was thinking about, as we began to see the importance of the environments in the tasks, we also knew that we were not, we were not the masters of the environments in the tasks.

We might know a lot about the tools. We might know a lot about how to determine what features a student needed, but it was the student, the mom, the teachers, the, the people that were in these environments with students who had that information as well as the student themselves, whose voice I believe is a, is a big voice and is, is [00:10:00] the central voice that we're all working toward.

So the framework then, um, came up because you do have something to offer here. And, and it's not just that you have to know the names of every feature or which tools have those features. And so I think of the set framework, it's, it's sort of. Historically, it, it's a flexible tool that makes concerns, identification and solution seeking processes available to everybody.

And everybody has a voice in thinking about that. And it's really useful in all phases of decision making and service delivery. And, and honestly for me, I think it's also important in life. I think we can absolutely say, you know, what, what's the, what's happening here? And you know, the importance of the environment I think is one of those interesting places because I can say that's important.

Um, and people listen and I don't mean I can say, I mean, it could be said that [00:11:00] that's important and people listen, but. There was never a time in history that we could realize how important the environment is now when everybody's in a very unusual environment and a very distinctly different environment than anyone else.

Not only our students, but service providers as well. Um, and what we've found from our own experience is how much that changes how we do our tasks and what our tasks actually are. And so I think we can take what we are learning personally as adults, as service providers and think, oh, now I see why it's so important, um, to think about these things as we're making decisions with and about students and families.

So, um, the goal of the framework is really to, to help. People [00:12:00] working together, collaborative team, whether they're an official team or a group who comes together around a particular purpose to help them create a tool system that is student centered, environmentally useful, and task focused. And I, I think back to the days of, um.

I don't know if you know, but a co I worked for Frankie Roma company for a couple of years because I used their devices in my classroom and I was the only special educator among all the speech pathologists, which was really fun for me. 'cause I learned a whole lot. I learned, uh, some of the vocabulary words that makes me sound like I'm smart and I'm not, I can say the word, but I'm not always sure exactly what it means.

Um, so, but if you say it confidently enough, everyone will That's right. Exactly. That's it. I just try to say it confidently. So, um, so I think what, what happened then it for me was, was really looking at those features of the tools [00:13:00] which were, were so important. And at that time it was not one device that could be used a lot of different ways.

It was sort of this device that did this, this other device that did that. So you had to know a lot of things, but it was always going back to okay. Who's going to use these and what's the environment gonna be like, where they use them, what level of support is gonna be available to the student? What level of support is gonna be able to available to the staff, um, to the family and, and what's happening in those environments so that we can make sure that the tool system that we put together is actually a system, not just a device.

And, and within that, there are many tools and many ways to do whatever it is we need to do. 

Amy Wonkka: Well, and, and I think that, you know, you said a couple of times a tool system and that is also so important. And I think especially post 2012 when iPads came out, you know, in the field of a a c, a lot of. People have [00:14:00] access to robust dynamic display speech generating tools who perhaps didn't before.

Um, and sometimes what I see happening is people aren't looking at it as this dynamic fluid system and they aren't looking at, you know, the different environments and the different tasks. And there are different tools that are more compatible for certain tasks in certain environments. And it becomes a little confusing for people who feel like they're not doing the right thing unless they're using this one specific speech generating tool across every task in every environment.

And that's not true, you know, for anybody. And I think that's another really freeing and also very important component of the set framework is, is not, you know, it's tools, plural. It's not tools singular. And I think that that's a very powerful message for folks who are operating in the field of at, but specifically a, a c.

Mm-hmm. Um, because sometimes we get a little confused about that. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Right. I think that's true. And you know, the, the [00:15:00] last t is not device, it's tools and, and honestly in its infancy, the set framework really was about how do we go about working together to find the right device, but quickly it root out of its infancy.

Mm-hmm. To, to be, to really thinking of that tool system as, as a system that has many things potentially are, are in it. And when I, when I say things I don't, I don't necessarily mean, um, you know, any item that increases who or maintains. Um, one of the things that I'm not sure everybody who's listening to this knows is that while we, our end product is, is, um, auditory, that right now as we're recording this, it's visual as well, so I can nod my head or put up my hand and I'm communicating something.

That's important, and it's a part of the system we're using and, and [00:16:00] sometimes when people get too fixed on, I will be using this device for everything, then the natural things that people just do, um, somehow seem to get out of the, out of that system or not be valued in that system. Um, and yet this is very valuable for us to have several different ways that we can communicate even while we're doing this recording.

So I think, um, that notion, in fact, I'll give you an example of, of what I, what I think is a funny story. A person said to me one time, um, this student just doesn't communicate at all. We doesn't, doesn't communicate. And I said, well, let's see, what about, you know, natural gestures? Um, um. And they said, well, I, I don't know.

I mean, yeah, she, he, he can say, he can nod his head and he can wave his head back and forth for yes and no. I'm like, to [00:17:00] me that's pretty good. That's a lot. Not that, not that we want that to be all of it, but that's a lot. And I said, well, what about eye gaze? And she said, oh, we're way beyond eye gaze. And I was like, okay.

So beyond eye gaze means that eye gaze is not gonna be a part of that person's system. Lemme give you a little, little illustration of how important eye gaze is. I can tell you right now that I'm going to do something to show you that's, is that important? Now I'm going to look at the door with an expression on my face and that's, and, and see what you do and what you feel.

And I look at the door with that sort of anticipatory, with expression on my face. And I guarantee you, you had to work not to turn your head to look that way, even though I told you nobody was gonna be there. So [00:18:00] think about the, the incredible power of that natural gesture. So then we got, then I think we got on a little bit better playing field to say not when you say not communicating, you're saying does not use oral speech.

You know, I don't even, like, I don't even like the, the term nonverbal because the fact that you don't make your ver your verbosity with your throat and your oral mechanisms still verbal, you know, lots of things going so there of 

Kate Grandbois: language. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: So capable 

Kate Grandbois: of language Yes. And communication. Mm-hmm. Um, I was gonna just highlight, just, you've said so many incredible things, but I think one of the, you are so nice many incredible things.

I mean, uh, you know, illustrating it with, you know, that story and, but I think one of the most amazing things about the set framework is this component of flexibility and this dy that it's a [00:19:00] dynamic process. And as you were speaking, I was realizing that. You know, I do use it flexibly. We, you know, we, we do use it flexibly, but there are so many components of flexibility.

So using, I don't know if you wanna speak to, if you could speak to that a little bit more. I mean, you've mentioned two components of flexibility already. One, flexibility in terms of how you think about the tool, but also flexibility with how you use the framework in general with collaborating with other professionals.

Um, you know, changing the, changing the system based on different changes in the environment and different changes in the tasks. Um, it's, I think, you know, if you, I don't know if there is more that you wanna say about that component of it. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: I think, I think probably, um, maybe, maybe connected to that, to that question is people will often say, so student environment tasks, tools.

So you go in order, you talk about the student, you talk about the environments, you talk about the tasks, and you talk about the tools and. So I'm like, I don't think [00:20:00] so, because I don't think you can talk about the student or the environment or the tasks without saying something about one of the others because the context is so important.

Always. And so when I think about flexibility, it's that we need to know the who. We need to know the where, and we need to know the for what before we can start thinking very seriously about the how and the how is is the tool system. So, so our flexibility in not going in and starting to talk about the tool system immediately, but really building this shared understanding of who we're talking about.

And, and by the way, I, as I said, I think earlier. I'm very, very committed to the fact that the who needs to be in the room and at the table, that, that we're not, you know, there's a, the disability thing that I think really goes to everybody's life. Nothing about us without us. Mm-hmm. And I think when we [00:21:00] try to, um, prescribe, if you will, uh, a system or a device for a person, unless that person has been involved in the discussion, it makes it a lot harder.

And that notion of, um, abandonment just, just goes way up. And so Penny Reed said something, uh, one time about, about the closer the decision makers are to the implementers. Uh, then the better they're, the more likely that that implementation will occur in a good way. And I think it's not even the closer, it's, they need to be like the same people, uh, to the greatest extent possible.

Which doesn't mean we don't bring in people who have a lot of knowledge about the technology and how it might, might work. But I think, and, and, and this, I will go back a little bit to what I, what I really think the set framework is. I mean, I told you a couple of things that it is, but I really think it's, it's a way of thinking.

It's just a [00:22:00] way of thinking. It's, it's a way of acting. Because if we think of a particular way and we think inclusively and we think about everybody having a voice and, and working together, we act that way. Um, it's a way to really encourage collaboration because everybody should find their voice somewhere in there.

Not necessarily that I know what auditory phishing is. Um, it, it, I don't have to know that necessarily. That may not even be a term that's used anymore, but it's what that I know. Um, and Pardon? 

Amy Wonkka: It's real. Oh yeah. It's real. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: It's real. Today. You're the boss. Yeah. Oh, good. Today. Um, and, and it's, it's, it's really a way to engage people.

And, and to keep them engaged through not just the consideration and the evaluation pieces, but really into the implementation and the evaluation of effectiveness pieces. That's, you know, the only reason we consider and we assess is so that we can do, and that's the implementation. [00:23:00] And if we're not focusing as much as possible on the people who are going to be involved in that implementation, we miss a big, a big opportunity.

I think so. And then the other piece is I do think that if we're all involved in making decisions, we are much more committed to seeing those things through to success. And I think, you know, if I have a bad experience, the first time around abandonment is gonna happen just like that. Especially if I wasn't already.

Sort of thinking this was a good idea if I thought somebody was sort of pushing it on me. And I probably, you've been in this situation, I think most of us have, where you've said, okay, we've made a decision and here it is. So here you go. And the person very politely says, thank you so much. And then as soon as you walk out of the room, they say, they don't know my life and what's happening here.

And so they're not committed to seeing this through. Um, in the same way they would be if they were part of the decision making and if they were also part of saying, [00:24:00] I don't see how that's going to work in this environment, which is again, the conversation people have said to me because I talk about the conversation a lot.

Talk, when does the conversation happen? Um, and the question that is always funny to me is, is it before or after an assessment? And my, my sense is how do you know what you're gonna assess for unless you've had the conversation, you know, what are the areas of concern? What are the, um, how's the the person doing whatever the areas of concern now so that we can build upon whatever strengths are there?

And um, and I do believe that from the conversation we come to a shared understanding of, of what we know. And we also find the things that we don't yet have a shared understanding of. And that's what, when we go to the next step, which sometimes is an assessment, but sometimes can be [00:25:00] something else that doesn't, isn't quite as formal as an assessment.

Um, what is it we still need to know and what are we gonna do to find out? And, and what we do to find out has, has a great deal to do with who's there at the time. If I as a, as a teacher and a person who keyboards quickly and well, but doesn't use the home row when someone says, oh no, he has to be able to keyboard at this level, at this length of time, it's like, for me it's like, ah, that doesn't matter to me, but it matters to somebody.

And if it matters to somebody, okay, there's a specific thing you do to find out speed, error, rate, all of those things. For me, if I, if I, I'm thinking about a keyboarding kind of device for a person, I might say, so Jeff, I know that you do your, your homework and you bring it in and you've done it on your home computer.

So do you do that by yourself? And he says Yes. And so his mom is sitting [00:26:00] there. I look over at his mom, she nods her head yes, and I'm good to go. I don't need to know how many words per minute at whatever rate. But that's me and our whole team has to feel comfortable. But that's, you know, what I wanna know is, is he doing this independently with a keyboard so I can get that answered just like that.

We don't need an assessment for that, but if we wanna know these other things that are more formal, there are particular acts we take and, and so I think if we haven't talked about what we know and what we still need to know and notice the we, everybody comes to the table at the beginning from their own perspective.

The, I, I bring this to the table, but as we use the set framework and we hear people talking about the student, the environments and the tasks, and we sort of separate them into those three categories, I think of it, sort of like a, a laundry basket, you know, where you're separating the, the clothes, you take 'em out of the big basket and you put 'em in.

And, and the reason for that is [00:27:00] sometimes we wanna know something more about the student, but sometimes it's just the environment. And when we think about that tool system, one of the things that I think is really important is, yes, we're looking at tools for the student, but we're also looking at tools that, for that environment to make that environment a inclusive, um, enriched environment where not only this student, but all students can learn and grow.

And that's part of the tool system too because a lot of times people will say this device is not working. We need to get a different device. When really the difficulty is we don't really know how to include that person using that device into these opportunities to learn and grow and build their skills.

So we need to make sure that our tool system includes supports for family, for staff, as well as supports for the student. 

Amy Wonkka: Well, and, and this may [00:28:00] be like an inaccurate or or loose use of the framework, but I find, you know, when I am using the set framework with a team, I kind of group in strategies with tools.

Because for a C, it's, the strategies are absolutely are so important. So, you know, it might be partner strategies, it might just be you need to wait a little bit. Communication partner and you know, so yes, I think thinking about that continuum of. Tools, but tools could also be the strategies that the partners are using.

And I think with the environment, I also kind of tend to group communication partners and features in with the environment as well in thinking about it. Absolutely. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Yep. Uh, 

Amy Wonkka: so, so yes, there's the, there might be like the general education classroom, but that in itself for some students could be broken into five micro environments.

Right? Exactly. So you have your one-on-one quiet reading with one buddy that's very different from a big, large, unstructured class [00:29:00] time. So I think that that piece can be helpful as well. And, and not all environmental factors are as important for every communicator, but I think you just, just having a place to hang all of those questions is so helpful.

Right. I think one thing the set framework does for me as somebody who's providing a a c service is it makes me. Remember to ask all of these questions. Right, right. It's a reminder to like, get all of this information and it's, it's so helpful. 

Kate Grandbois: The dynamic process of the set framework and being able to, it just highlights the fact that a, a c and tool selection is a dynamic process.

It is not just tool selection and those environments, and I, I have the same sort of loose or possibly inaccurate application of the set framework in terms of no that'ss. Perfect. That's perfect. I feel very validated now that I have been, been doing it wrong for all these years. But, you know, in, in considering the environment and the communication partners as part of that environment, I [00:30:00] think that that's another big contributing factor to abandonment.

Absolutely. You know, not considering the learning curves of the communication partners. Mm-hmm. Or the, um, the background knowledge or the bandwidth or capability or, you know, if you don't consider those components of the environment, then you're really just. You're not doing justice to the student and you're really not sort of doing your job not to be, you know, black and white about it.

But if you really want to have this success, then you need to go so much farther beyond just who just choosing the tool. And I think that's where the set framework really gives us, you know, you just, like you said, it's just that simple acronym, but it gives those pegs to hang all of those questions and really forces you to go beyond that final step.

'cause it's not final, it's dynamic. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Yeah. And then you're gonna loop around and 'cause students are gonna change and Barbara's are gonna change, tasks are gonna change. And I think you're, you're absolutely right about the, when people [00:31:00] consider the environment a place that's, that's like the. Tiniest little bit of what that environment is like.

You know, Mrs. Jones is in Mr. Brown's room, are not even the same. And then you even have within those rooms all of these other things that occur. Um, one time somebody described their classroom as fourth grade classroom and it was like, okay, so tell me more. And I think that's the other thing about the framework is we have really have to say, tell me more, rather than mm-hmm.

What, that's all you said, you know, because that's not the same, that's not very inviting. Um, so, 

Kate Grandbois: and I think that's also, I was just having this thought about, I'm not there, there might be a better word for it, but the word that's coming to mind is ego. So as this quote specialist, or quote, you know, external person or as you've referred to them earlier, the decision maker.

You know, if you go into an environment to do this kind of assessment or [00:32:00] conversation or you know, application, and you just, you decide, you know, you really can't do it properly if you think that you know best 'cause you don't, you know, so there's this component of being, you know, um, flexible and. Not acknowledging that you don't know everything and that other communication partners may know the student better than you, and sort of trying to be the glue and facilitator of all of that.

Exactly. Instead of the decision, the true decision maker. I mean, you're just facilitating the decision instead of deciding for everybody and then getting the hell outta there. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Right. And you may know, and it may end up being exactly what you thought at the, at the end, but if, if people you're working with think it's their idea what engagement, what engagement.

So much more committed. Um. To, to what's, what, how that thing's gonna be used. And, and, uh, then, then, then if you just [00:33:00] say, oh, this is the right thing. And also you've gone through some thought processes to processes, and you mentioned that, Amy, you mentioned that all of these, these pieces that go into the tool system and, and the notion that a device or sometimes even more than one device, um, when we think about the whole range of possibilities of devices, um, is gonna be in that system and, and you want people to understand.

Not only what's in the system, but also where's the, where's the place that, that, that piece is used? You know that, and I said earlier that we can see each other, but our listeners will not know, will not see us. Um, you all people who are listening, we are nodding, we're smiling, we're doing all kinds of nonverbal sorts of communication going on here.

And, and for us, that's, that's, I, those skills are [00:34:00] important in what we're doing. And so we wanna make sure that that tool system helps the partners, the, the people who set up the environments, the people who are active at, at, um, controlling what happens in those environments. Really have the opportunity to learn and grow and, and they can't learn and grow, boom, like that.

You know, I've never done this before and now I'm gonna be an expert. That we have to celebrate the small successes and move forward. And we do that not only for the students, but we also do that for the adults and the others who are around the students and, and really, really capitalize on those little wins that give confidence and the ability to step out and, and try something else.

Amy Wonkka: Because nobody likes to feel bad. We were nodding, Kate and I were nodding so, so vigorously. There was aggressive 

Kate Grandbois: nodding happening. 

Amy Wonkka: That's that's so true. And we talk about that a lot because so much of effective a a c [00:35:00] implementation is mediated through partners. Partners have to change and nobody likes to feel like they're not doing something well.

So to, to walk in and, and do something. You know, if you have your specialist hat on. You walk in and do something to somebody instead of doing it with them. It's a, it's a excellent yes. Experience. Um, and, and yeah, just like for our students, you wanna kind of meet people in their zone of proximal development, right?

If I come in and there's no modeling and people aren't providing wait time, and there's a lot of things that I see could perhaps shift and have a positive effect on the student, you're, you're gonna start with things that are achievable and small and make people feel positively about it. I mean, I think that And give 

Kate Grandbois: them reinforcement for it.

Amy Wonkka: Yeah, exactly. You know, make 

Kate Grandbois: sure that they are being reinforced effectively and not just, you know, a good job, but whatever that means for that individual. And I think that that's, that's so important. Making sure that we. Move the [00:36:00] communication partners along at their pace instead of just, well, you're an adult.

I expect we had this conversation when we recorded our partner training. Told you episode. Yeah. You know, there's, there, everybody comes to the table with a different set of knowledge, um, a different set of skills. And if it's a teacher or that you're working with or a parent, you know, that teacher is a person, that para is a person.

They, they have a caseload, they have kids. They're worrying about, they're thinking about their dinner. Maybe they have something going on in their personal lives. You know, you have to make sure that there's that collaboration at a level where it can be implemented, um, effectively and, and have it be a positive experience.

Dr. Joy Zabala: Yeah. And I, and we, we often rush through those sort of human parts of all of this. Someone said one time, we have to remember to linger in places where we need to linger so that that confidence gets built and people are, are, um, ready for the next step. One of the things I love about the [00:37:00] implementation pieces, you know, we also, I think we negotiate with students and with, with families and with educators that we say, well, all right, let, where would be a good place to start this?

You know, and the kid who's saying, I, you know, I don't think I wanna take this thing with me everywhere, this thing, whatever it is. Um, okay, so let's, where would you like to start? Let's pick, let's pick one place to start and then, then, and, and that same thing with the, with the communication partners as well.

You know what, let's start with this, and then how are you feeling about that? Good. What would you think would be the next step? Where we re what would you like to try next? And the notion is not, uh, we're not gonna try anything next. You can't say no, but what would you like to try next? Where would be a good place to, to, to take your next steps with this?

Um, I really believe that's, that's important and that, and that's. It's sort of that, it's, it's the, it's what you all were talking about [00:38:00] before we actually started about being assistive technology coaches and the notion that you're not in there giving somebody everything they need right now. And you walk out and they don't even remember how to turn whatever it is on anymore because you gave them so much.

But let's start and we'll be looping back with you talking about what's working, what's not working, what needs to be changed, what needs to be tweaked. And I think that's, that is part of the, the flexibility piece as well, is that every single student is different from every other student. We can't make giant generalizations about people, um, different motivations, different expectations of themselves.

And here you can even go into, into, um, students with learning disabilities, for example, where people like us who have worked with a lot of people with really more intensive support needs, think, oh my gosh, that's so easy. Well, not necessarily, and, and. It's what the student may [00:39:00] have learned over the years is, I can't do this stuff.

You know, I can't read, I can't think. So when you ask them what their expectations are for moving forward, their expectations are sort of in a box. Well, I don't really have any. Okay. So we have to know that's that's where they're starting. I can't do that. And we'd have to figure, it's our job as the creators of the environments, if you will, is to provide lots of opportunities to show that person and let that person see, Hey, I, I can do some things I couldn't do before, and I can build on those things.

So, so I think that's all of this. While it sounds like just. Just discussion that we would have. It really is something that the set framework helps you have that discussion and think about those things and to really, I love the way both of you immediately went to the tool system as being something much bigger than the selection of a [00:40:00] device.

And I will tell you one of the things people have trouble with is I say, well, doesn't that take a really long time? And it might if the person's needs are complex, but if they're not, um, like in consideration we might say, you know, does this student, um, need assistive technology tools, devices and services to accomplish a task they need to do to in their environments to reach their goals?

Yep. They can, they need them. Well, alright, let's look at what they might need or, Nope, they're really doing fine. Good. You've, you've done it. That's all you needed to do right there. Mm-hmm. Or you knew there was one particular area of concern and you. Could zero right in on it. Communication is a big thing and so it's gonna take a little bit longer and we're gonna have to loop back more often because we're gonna expect those changes in the student and changes in the environments and the resulting changing in tasks.

And we wanna [00:41:00] say, does the system of tools that we're using right now, is it actually moving the student to where he and others wanted him to go, or is it not? And we have to think about when we think about the environ, well, when we think about everything, but particularly in the environments, you wanna know what are the facilitators within this environment?

I'm not just talking about facilitator persons, but what makes it, what makes this environment a place where this student and others can learn and grow? And then what are the barriers that we wanna think about? And this is a very sort of universal design for learning approach. We wanna create that environment with as few barriers as possible.

We want to anticipate barriers so that we can figure out ahead of time how we might lower those barriers. But some kids are gonna still have some barriers no matter how good a job we've done at making things universally designed. So that whole environment piece is just, it's just this incredible richness that, that I think, um, it's almost like if, [00:42:00] if we can, if we can create the environment to be that inviting environment, we can figure out the rest of these things.

But when, when we're ready to go to the, you know, so in, if we're having a lengthy conversation and we're ready to go to the tools. This may be the assistive technology coach, knowing that we're ready to go to the discussion about the tools. I don't say anymore. Maybe I did at one time. So what features do we need for this?

This student? I say, so John, we've talked about you. We've talked about the environments where you spend your time, where you learn and grow. We've talked about the tasks that you need to do. Um, so now let's start thinking about some tools. But really what I want you to think about is if there were something out there that would help John in his customary environments do the tasks that he needs to do to make progress toward his goals, [00:43:00] what would it be like?

Kate Grandbois: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Not, not what teachers would it have? What would it be like, because. I guarantee you in some very, um, un rigorous research that I've done just by people I've worked with, you would be you, you two would not be, but many people would be amazed at what people who've never thought about a device in their life and doesn't even know what's out there, can describe what's needed.

Well, it would have to do this and it would have to do that, and they can base that on what we've just been talking about, building this shared knowledge about the student and the environment and the tasks. And so it's just a, it, it's just that's where, that's where I think, again, the flexibility comes in, is if you say, what's it like?

People are free to use their imagination. 

Kate Grandbois: Well, and I think just switching your language to make it more accessible to the communication partner. You know, if you approach someone and say [00:44:00] exactly what components of this device with, you know, different pixelated thing, they're, they're, that's not a human, that's not a human way to ask a question.

And I feel like when you phrase it that way, it really, I mean, caregivers and communication partners, they do know what their students or a child or, you know, they do know what they need. And I, I think that's such a great way to reframe it so that they can answer the question without getting lost in some sort of technical, oh, what if I answered it wrong and I don't know, you know?

Yeah. And I look stupid 

Dr. Joy Zabala: because I did it wrong. Yeah, right. Exactly. Which is, which is an ego risk. You mentioned ego earlier, you know, it's, we gotta sort to leave a little of that at the door and we say that all the time. Leave your ego at 

Kate Grandbois: the door. We say it all the time 

Dr. Joy Zabala: because you're not. You don't, nobody should know everything, but everybody brings something to the, to the collective.

Um, and I, and I think that's, that's really important. Um, [00:45:00] so there are some critical elements that are close to what I was talking about with the, the, what I think the framework is. You know, the critical elements I think are building that shared knowledge. We come with our individual knowledge, but we build through our conversation, shared knowledge, and, and often I'll say, so let's talk about you, John.

You know, and then everybody says things, but they're not just saying things about John, they're talking about the environments in the test. I sort of pull those pieces out and put them on my great form, which is usually a piece of yellow paper with two lines drawn on it. One says student, one says environment, one says staff.

And I just take my notes that way. And then at some point I say, so here's what we've said. You know, not I, you, whatever. Here's what we've said. Is there anything we need to add? And is there anything that, that we still question here that we need to check further on? Um, is there anything that we, that we really don't agree on this one and so we need to take it out.

So sort of a [00:46:00] keep stop, start kind of thing. And if everybody's pretty cool, then we go on to the next part and the next part. And we, and, and that's the other thing is if, if we have differences of opinion and one, one of the thing, and I'm very sensitive, this is a teacher, but one of the things that is really fun is like Joy is in Kate's classroom and Kate has no difficulties at all.

Joy's doing great in Kate's classroom. Amy says, actually she's having a lot of trouble in my classroom. Or, or if you were, you would, considering I'm there, you would say, yes, this is a place where you're having a lot of trouble. Right. Let's talk about that. Well, what happens in to people a lot is, well, you know, Amy, you need to go and observe what Kate is doing because that way you'll know 

Amy Wonkka: be more like Kate, 

Dr. Joy Zabala: be more like Kate.

Which, well, I mean, I sort of like the way that sounds. Think Kate's a good 

Amy Wonkka: [00:47:00] thing. 

Kate Grandbois: Yes, we could, we can keep it that. No, but we'll make I think you, but you know what I mean. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Yeah. But what we don't know. Yeah. What we don't know if we make that really way too jumping to conclusions. Maybe Kate's class doesn't involve whatever area of concern there is in Amy's class.

Maybe Kate's class is first thing in the morning when I'm less stressed, more relaxed and, and Kate's and Amy's class is. Late in the afternoon when I'm exhausted and my, my super cool thing I can do with my switch to do all these communication things in the morning, by the afternoon, I can't do it anymore.

Kate Grandbois: And not to reframe that completely into, you know, behavior analytic language, but every, oh, go ahead. I, I can't help it. Every environment has its own learning history. So maybe you were really tired just, you know, in Amy's class versus, or, you know, tired versus energetic in Amy's and Kate's class. Maybe [00:48:00] just a, for a short period of time.

But you quickly learned that when you, you know, that set of different contingencies, that environment sets you up and now you have this internal, internal rule, and this is more, you know, you're more likely to have those issues in that classroom. I mean, there is, there is a way to break the chain, but to your original point, having.

You know, Amy, come and visit my class or me go visit Amy's class and be, be more like Kate. We can just keep saying that. That's not the, I mean, that's so far from the answer because that environment is so rich with different stimuli that contribute to that student's learning history in that environment and Exactly.

It's just, that's not, I mean, everybody, you know, I'm, I'm pretty great. Coming to visit my classroom isn't, isn't a horrible thing, but it's never the answer. It's just not, 

Dr. Joy Zabala: and it's not necessarily the answer for another person. Yeah. You know, because there's, there's that too, but, and what [00:49:00] if we find out that Amy has not gotten any support in how to include this person doing these things?

So in a, in a way, Amy has to. Put her ego aside. And as teachers we're taught to handle everything, you know, whatever happens, you're supposed to handle it. That's, you're not supposed to show that you don't know how to do something. We have got to get over that. We've got to say, I need help with this. Um, and I have a wherewithal 

Kate Grandbois: to know what you don't know and say it's okay that I don't know everything.

It's exactly, it's okay that I learn from my peers. It's okay that I get critical feedback. Yes, it's gonna give me all the icky feelings, but I'm gonna move through them and, and look, you know, learn something from it. That's such a crucial cornerstone of professional development and, and being a good clinician and educator.

Exactly. 

Amy Wonkka: I think part of what's great though about working in a school and with teams is that, you know, that's. You are [00:50:00] more comfortable being in a vulnerable position with people who you trust and who you've had positive experiences with. Mm-hmm. So I think, you know, anytime working in a consultative role right now, you know, anytime that you're forming a relationship or having interactions with people who you've worked with even for a very long time, that's back to what you were saying, joy about lingering, you know, linger.

Because it's not just about the tasks that you were sent here to do, it's also about forming authentic relationships with other people. And not that you're gonna be best friends with everybody who you work with because you won't, but I think, you know, I see that as part of my job is to, is to be somebody who hopefully feels approachable to everybody who I work with.

I, I want, and, and I hope that what I, what I do when I go in and work with teams is cultivate an open door. Please reach out to me. Uh, your input is really important. I am here to help you. Like that is my job. I'm here to help you. 

Kate Grandbois: And we had talked about this in a previous [00:51:00] episode, the importance of being a person to that other person, you know, making that connection around how was your weekend?

Or, I heard that your mom was sick. How is she doing? Mm-hmm. Um, I had a friend who passed away, but before he passed, he always used to say, always leave time for doling and conversation. Oh, I like that. I thought that was such a nice, um, thing to bring into. I mean, you know, not to sort of merge the two, the two worlds, but, you know, bringing that into a professional setting is okay because having, you know, establishing those relationships with your colleagues so that you can have a difficult conversation with them in the future is rooted in being a human and being kind and being, you know.

Exactly like you said, Amy, making sure that they, they know that the door is open to have those conversations and ask you for help because you weren't a jerk, because you were nice. Right? Yeah. Because you are, you know, there with a smile. And your presence in and of itself is a [00:52:00] reinforcing component in the classroom.

Dr. Joy Zabala: Mm-hmm. A place where pe it's, it's about feeling emotionally safe. Mm-hmm. And, and to, to say, I need, I need help with this. It's new to me. Unfortunately, a lot of what happens because we are not as comfortable with that, is that people in the environment will say, no, that student needs to be somewhere else.

Not here. Yes. Yep. And, and I, I think, and it's probably one of the hardest things we have to do, but I think that's the place where we know that the person needs the most support because they're probably not disliking the student. They're probably fearful that they will not be able to meet that student's needs as well as the needs of whomever else is in their classroom.

And so that then it behooves us to actually be a part of, to sort of model some of the, those things, not look [00:53:00] at me while I model this for you, but I'm here and I saw that communication opportunity and I made this, this, and then I say later you, that was really cool, that communication opportunity that was there.

And when, you know, when speech language pathologists first started going into classrooms and there was this expectation that you don't have your student alone. You're, you're in the classroom. And I remember saying, talking about that one time and someone saying to me, well, if I'm in the classroom just there, I feel like I'm the aide.

And I said, well, you know. AIDS are really important in classrooms. That's not what you are there for. And if you are not seeing communication opportunities that, that no one else would see, just regular, then maybe that's what you're doing in that classroom. You, you, you must, you have knowledge and skills that you can find things that are those community application [00:54:00] opportunities.

You can develop those communication opportunities and the teachers and the aides and all of the people in there with you are going to see you doing that and they're gonna start doing it too. And then you've got, not just when you're there, something's happening, but, but you've built that environment and supported that environment.

To be a place where people can learn and grow. And I think for me, going back to the Universal Design for Learning thing, when you have Universal Design for Learning as a basis, that strong foundation where you've really thought about what barriers might be here and how can we lower those barriers? And then you add in assistive technology, which for me is, it includes all of the seating and positioning, all of the A com, everything.

Um, and you put those two things together, you have this wonderful opportunity to really have a sign on your door that says, anybody who comes here [00:55:00] can participate and learn here. And I think that's what we're all about. And I think we start building that kind of environment by talking about who our students are, what kind of environment are we building, what kind of tasks are part of what one has to do to learn and grow.

And then we think about the tools that we and our students need to make to make that happen. 

Amy Wonkka: Okay, so what happens if you have somebody who's part of your collaborative planning group and they come into that meeting and they have already decided what tool they think the person needs? So you have, you know, you have the special educator and they come in and they say, you know, we've given it thought the super, super alpha numerator is an amazing tool, and I'm sure that that's what this student needs.

So can you just help us get one of those? What does, what does that look like? 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Well, you know, and that does happen and, and when people push back, it's usually because the tool is either more [00:56:00] complex or more expensive. Um, even though expense is not the primary cause, it's something that you, you think about.

And, and what I think is a good idea is to say, you know, that just might be it. So let's talk about James and what he needs to do and where he needs to do it. And look at what, what kinds of things might lower barriers for him and what kind of things might raise barriers for him. And have that discussion and we'll see where we land.

So what you're doing is inviting people to do those, to, to enter into discussion about the who and the where and the what for. And what I've found is when you have those discussions, nobody wants to make things harder for a kid. Nobody does. And so when you're thinking about those, what goes in the tool system?

You system, what I like to do is say, okay, let's see. [00:57:00] He, we, what we've said is it's, it's a, it's a writing problem. Let's take it out of the speech language for the moment. Um, he, he has dysgraphia and, and creating lengthy written assignments as a problem. Okay, so what are we gonna put in this tool system?

Well, I'm gonna throw in a pencil. So how, how about that pencil? Um, what barriers is that going to, to lower for him? Well, none of the ones we've really talked about. Um, but he uses his pencil for short things and he uses his pencil to, you know, to, to connect things and even write a sentence or two, his spelling words.

But when it's longer than that, it's really hard. So it does, it does need to be the system because he uses it for something. So let's throw it in. We know what barriers it, it, um, it addresses, we know what barriers it. Um, [00:58:00] doesn't impact. And we know what barriers it creates. And the only way this pencil is creating a barrier is we let it, if we let it be the only tool in his system.

So when we get back to the super alpha numerator, we're already been talking about what barriers would this lower, what barriers would you name, what barriers would be created? If you start that with the super alpha numerator, you haven't, you have to build that way of thinking about it with the things that are part of the system, but not, um, that preferred thing that you think might be too complex.

Amy Wonkka: Well, and I think by doing it that way, you also bring everybody's thoughts back to the idea that there's a continuum. And so if you, if you skip that, even if the super alpha numerator is the right tool for that lengthy written production by omitting all of those conversations about the barriers, you, you confuse people about when it shouldn't, shouldn't [00:59:00] be used because you should still be using the pencil to write short responses.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, so it really, it facilitates a broader discussion and, and broader thoughts around what everybody really wants for. The person and what that person wants for themselves. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Exactly. Because we know we're everybody is an advocate for the student moving forward. We don't usually have any disagreement at that point.

That's just, and if somebody isn't, they really need to go do something else while we're having this meeting. Um, but what, where we get in trouble is that we all have different ideas about what that is. So that's what we're trying to do with the set framework, is bring those ideas into a shared knowledge so that we can move forward together.

And I think one in closing, maybe one of the, um, one of the things that this 19 upset, um, has, has put us in, is a place that's radically different than any, [01:00:00] anyone I don't think could have. I'm not sure anyone could have ever predicted that this would be happening like it is. Um, but we as service providers need to think about who we are.

What are our environments like right now, and how did that change the tasks that we're expected to do? And what tools do we need to be able to serve other educators, our students, and our families? In a way that helps them move forward. So that's where, to me, the set framework is of course, I mean, to me that's the way my brain works.

But, uh, and it's, and I've been training it for a long, long time, but I think it, again, it goes back to when you say what is it? It's really knowing who you're talking about, where you're talking about what you're talking about before you start looking at the how and, and to think about, um, it as a way of thinking and a way of acting, and a way to encourage ongoing [01:01:00] collaboration, to build those human relationships that let people know we're all in this together and we can make a difference here to engage and keep others engaged, which really does lower the chances of abandonment, not only of devices, but also of strategies and the whole notion of being successful in, in this time.

And to remember always, always, always that it is. It's iterative and ongoing that you don't, it's not something that happens and you're done. But when you think about it being iterative and ongoing, one of the things I sort of like is whatever notes we've taken, that's our description here of the student environment and tests and we've put together this tool set, is we look at that again, you know, I save as is one of my tips for implementation because then we come back when it's time.

If, if we're only doing this once a year, which I hope we're not only doing this once a year, but that official consideration piece that we have to do in the development or [01:02:00] um, revision of the IEP is that we say, here's what we knew about the student, here's what we knew about the environments, here's what we knew about the tasks, what's changed.

Is there anything in these environments that needs that we need to keep to stop to start? Same with the student. How has the student changed? And my Lord, we certainly hope the student has changed because the whole idea was to help the student learn and grow. You know? So, but the environments and the tasks have changed too.

So is our tool set still the right one? Or what do we need to do differently? So I think to me, when I think about the tools in their purest form, or maybe least pure form, is that it's our response. It's our response to this student or these students in these environments doing these tasks and our response changes based on how things are going and how things change.

Kate Grandbois: I love that. [01:03:00] I. That's fabulous. Well, I love y'all. Can we do this, but just thinking of the tool, not as a tool, but as a response to everything else that's happening. That that, mm-hmm. My brain just exploded all over my microphone. Ladies and gentlemen. We're done. Thank you. That's all we needed. Well, I guess before we wrap up, is there anything that you wanna inform our listeners about coming up?

Are there recommendations you have if someone wants to learn more about the, about the set framework or resources that you think are, you know, a good, you know, so let's say our listeners have listened to this episode. They, you know, now fully understand the awesomeness that is the framework. Where can they go from here?

What 

Dr. Joy Zabala: they're probably. They're probably saying now, what does that stand for? 

Kate Grandbois: No. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Oh, where can they go? Well, one thing that's I important to know is that in [01:04:00] 1995, which is 25 years ago in a session that was one hour long in a na at a national convention, I said, when we're thinking about this, we might wanna consider thinking about the student, but not just that, the environments and the task, and I was actually talking about implementation.

I was not talking about assessment at all and, and the tools that we need, you know, this student needs and we need, and that was about the length of what I said just then. And I said, and we can call that set and it's a framework that we can think about. And two things happened because I was looking at it as something very, um.

Sort of, uh, for, for new people to help them understand. And one of the things that happened is Caroline Mus White came up afterwards and she said, you know what? That will help me explain to people what I've been trying to explain to them. And that was, I was thrilled, you know, because I mean, [01:05:00] Caroline Muss White, I was a teacher, and Caroline Musselwhite said that was good.

And, and, um, and the other thing that happened is the next year, the set framework was in a whole bunch of other people's presentations. So I, I think what I'm trying to say here is you'll find the set framework out there on it has become its own self. Um, some, sometimes I'm really excited about ways people do things.

Sometimes not so much. But, um, if you Google set, set framework. You get a lot of hits a lot. Um, my website, which is honestly a holding place, it is not up to date at all. Um, is Joy at, no, that's my email address. Joy is joy. alo.com is my, is my website, joy alo.com. And, um, there's a lot of stuff there. I'll also send you guys a link to a Dropbox that has a lot of things in it [01:06:00] and, and what's in the Dropbox are some scaffolds that sort of take you through thinking about this, especially from the perspective of making decisions about a particular child.

But there's also a, a, um, a folder in there that's sort of a messy folder that's just drafts of different ways, like thinking about it for a whole classroom, thinking about it for yourself as a service provider. But keep in mind that the framework, um, the only way you can do the framework wrong. Is to decide about tools before you know who's gonna use them, where they're gonna use 'em, and what they're gonna use 'em for.

That's the only way you can do it wrong. Um, or just do it by yourself and not letting anybody else have anything to say. There's that. Um, and, and so, but the scaffolds are just like any scaffold. They're, they're a sample. You know, you, you see a scaffold on a building to do something, but then they move that scaffold and they change it around, make it higher, make it lower, make it different.[01:07:00] 

The scaffolds are there simply as examples. Go for it. Take them as ideas and move forward. So those are a couple of couple of things I think that might be helpful. But don't come back in that messy folder and say, that was wrong, because that was just a throw down, you know, a, uh, sacrificial draft. How's that?

So 

Kate Grandbois: that sounds perfect. All right. Well, awesome. We will, um, put the link to the Dropbox on our site right on, on the episode page. Great. And the link to your website? Uh yep. Okay. Joy abala.com. And anybody can write? 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Yeah, anybody can write to me at [email protected]. On my website right now, there is a place where you can enter a comment or whatever.

Don't use it. It all goes to my spam folder and it doesn't have anything that identifies it, so I have to open everything in the spam folder to see if it's one of them. Is, is actually from a person so much better to just send me an, an email than, than that, and if I don't answer [01:08:00] within 24 hours, send me another email.

Okay. I never mind being reminded or brought back to the top of the stack, so. That's awesome. 

Amy Wonkka: Um, well, I don't have any more questions. Amy, do you, I just wanna say thank you so, so much. This has been such a pleasure. I'm so grateful to you for the framework and sharing it. Um, I really do think it's changed the way I provide my service and in a way that really helps students and families and teams.

So thank you so much. 

Dr. Joy Zabala: Thank you all so much for having me. What a pleasure. All right. Well it will make, get me through the rest of the day, maybe even the rest of the week, so, okay. I'm gonna, I'll call, I'm gonna call you guys up about every week and say, okay, say something good. That sounds great. We're always around.

That sounds wonderful. We're all always around these 

Kate Grandbois: days. That's true. That's for sure. That's true. Well, take care. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening, everyone. I think that pretty much wraps us up. We had the [01:09:00] most amazing time with Dr. Zalla and we hope you enjoyed it. If you are using this episode for ASHA Professional Development, please go to our website, www.lpnerdcast.com to purchase your certificate of attendance.

We love hearing from our listeners. Send us an email if you have any questions. Don't forget to reference all of our materials on our website, including the link to Dr. Zola's Dropbox, as well as some handouts that we have available. And check us out on Instagram and Facebook. Leave us a message, leave us a comment.

We love hearing from you all and we hope everyone has a great rest of their day.