Amy Wonkka: [00:00:00] Welcome to SLP Nerd Cast. I'm Kate. And I'm Amy. And we appreciate you tuning in. In our podcast, we will review and provide commentary on resources, literature, and discussed issues related to the field of speech language pathology.
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LP Nerd Cast is brought to you in part by listeners like you. You can support our work by going to our website or social media pages and contributing. You can also find permanent products, notes and other handouts, including a handout for this episode. Some items are free, others are not, but everything is always affordable.
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Kate Grandbois: Before we get started in today's episode's, financial and Non-Financial disclosures, um, I am the owner and founder of Grand Wa Therapy and Consulting, LLC and co-founder of SLP Nerd Cast.
Amy Wonka is an employee of a public school system and co-founder of [00:02:00] SLP Nerd Cast. Uh, we are both members of ASHA's six 12 and both serve on the a a C advisory group from Massachusetts Advocates for Children. I am a member of the Berkshire Association for Behavior Analysis and Therapy, mass a BA, the Association for Behavior Analysis International and the corresponding Speech Language Pathology and Applied Behavior Analysis special interest group.
So aim, what are we talking about today?
Amy Wonkka: We are talking about verbal behavior.
Kate Grandbois: Dun, dun, dun. I feel like, I feel like, um, it's, we are, I feel like we're cheating talking about verbal behavior. Does it feel naughty?
Amy Wonkka: No, we're not cheating. We're just, we're just expanding. We're, we're, we're broadening our horizons, man.
Kate Grandbois: That's true. That's true. So, so why did we choose this topic?
Amy Wonkka: Um, you know, I think most SLPs are gonna interact with the BCBA at some point in their careers. We kind of covered this a bit in our collaboration podcast, but you know, we're [00:03:00] gonna hear these terms. A lot of people who are working, I think particularly pediatric therapists, you're, you're going to hear some of these terms thrown about.
Helpful to know what, what they refer to.
Kate Grandbois: And the field of A BA is only growing. So even if you are in A SNF or in, you know, working with the elderly in some capacity, there is a BA happening everywhere. So I think it is, it could be, it could be relevant no matter where you work, depending. Um, and we, I think we've had a lot of discussions about this.
We feel like the behavioral classifications of language, um, not only are they crucial to effective collaboration, but they can be helpful in your clinical work.
Amy Wonkka: Oh, I think so for sure. Um, you know, verbal behavior is sometimes misunderstood and I think through learning about it, you know, especially for certain clients, certain clients who are having challenges with acquiring language, you know, [00:04:00] having that behavioral classification along with our more traditional form content use classification of language, really can help just add an additional layer of information that lets us do our jobs a bit more effectively.
Kate Grandbois: And I think you, you hit the nail on the head a second ago when you said it was often misunderstood. Um, and before it, we were preparing for this podcast, I was. I was telling Amy about, um, my ex, my first experiences with verbal behavior. So every clinician goes through a graduate program. Everybody gets, you know, Ashe sets these standards for what we learn about, what we don't learn about.
But there are slight nuances, there are slight differences. And Amy had a lot of exposure or some exposure to the verbal classifications of language in her grad program. And I had zero. And when I went to my first job, I had a coworker who I adore. She's great, but she told me we were working in a clinic that primarily worked with children with [00:05:00] autism.
Outpatient. And I asked her, what's that
Amy Wonkka: outpatient?
Kate Grandbois: Yeah, it was an outpatient clinic. Yes. Um, and one of my clients was, you know, using all the, using all these crazy words, Mant text, inter verbal. And I was like, what's that? And I asked her, 'cause she was more senior than me, she had more experience than me.
And she told me that verbal behavior was when A, BCBA took a child's device away and made them speak. And I was outraged a appropriately. So it was, it was absurd. It was ridiculous. Um, and for years that was what my definition of verbal behavior was, and I was 100% wrong. Um, there was, you know, so much more to it than that's not even close to what it is.
And we would really like to set the record straight. I think if there are other people out there who are operating with false, um, ideas of what verbal behavior is.
Amy Wonkka: Well, and I think, I mean, to be fair, I think the field of [00:06:00] verbal behavior, at least how the practitioner interacts with it, has changed a bit too.
Um, I first learned about verbal behavior in the nineties. I went to see Vincent Carbone, who's a speaker, who does a lot of trainings in like, I don't know, 97, 98 or something like that out on the Cape. And I went, I was like a paraprofessional at the time. I went with a speech pathologist and I remember us sitting there and he was very clearly like, sign was the only alternative modality.
So I do think, you know, some of that has probably changed over time too, as both we
Kate Grandbois: hope, because that was like, at least 20 years ago, right? Hmm. I said we hope because that was at least 20 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. But so, and I mean the field of a c has changed so much since then, so,
Amy Wonkka: right. And I think, you know, I think that that's, that's a, an important point too, that even if you did have maybe not the best experiences working with people from the other field, like back in the day, [00:07:00] we, we will both provide better service by working together and educating one another.
Kate Grandbois: Um, so we meaning you and the speech pathologist and the BCBA or other provider who was using a verbal class, verbal behavior classification of language. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Um, so we feel like this is a really important topic. Um, I think we both having learned about verbal behavior through an A BA program feel that it really does add value.
Um, and we're excited to, we're excited to jump in dev right in. So, um, our three learning objectives, or our three learning buckets for the day are. What is verbal behavior? Let's just define it. Um, where did it come from? What is the history behind verbal behavior and how, how did we get here? Number two, what are common, uh, verbal operants that are also called the elementary verbal operas.
And three, how is verbal behavior relevant to the practice of an SLP? Why should we care? [00:08:00] Um, so that's. That's what we're gonna cover. We have a little bit of a disclaimer, um, before we jump into all of that. Well, actually two disclaimers, one smaller, one larger. The first is that a bulk of the information from today is coming from a textbook that, um, BCBAs use.
It's sort of like their Ray Paul, um, their al book. It's like a, a, a large, thick, heavy book that ENC encompasses pretty much the entire field of a BA as an in an as an introductory, uh, text. And so we're gonna be going through a lot of that. There's gonna be citations throughout the, the handout. But instead of repeating constantly refer to, you know, Cooper, her and, and Heward.
That's the name of the textbook. Just as a disclaimer, that's where a lot of this information is coming from. And the second disclaimer is that people spend their entire careers studying verbal behavior. This is an immensely dense, immensely dense, that probably definitely case. [00:09:00] Yeah. Yeah. Immensely dense.
That's a double doozy. A double doozy. Um, so it's a really, really dense topic and we are not experts in this field. We are, I am a certified BCBA, but Amy did all of her base B, CBA classwork and then just didn't take the exam. So we're educated in this topic, but we are not experts and we are gonna try and do a cursory overview, um, of this incredibly detailed and complex work.
And we will have additional references on our website in case anybody wants to do a deeper dive and maybe we'll do a deeper dive in the future.
Amy Wonkka: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of this is kind of translating some of this as we understand it as sort of lay people who are not researchers of verbal behavior.
Right.
Kate Grandbois: Okay. So learning bucket number one. What is verbal behavior and where did it come from? I mean,
Amy Wonkka: where did it all start? Kate, tell us a little bit about this. Was there a [00:10:00] person Once upon a
Kate Grandbois: time. 1900. No, I'm just kidding. So, so, so way back in the day before 1900, um, or, you know, before, in the early turn of the century, psychology was really dominated by ideas that were not measurable, things that were not observable.
There was a lot of talk about introspection, feelings, um, very abstract concepts. You know, psychology was full of a lot of conjecture and hypotheticals. And, um, a, a man named John Watson came along in 1913. It's like I'm telling, like the Oregon Trail here. He came along in 1913 and he wrote an article called Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it.
And he basically founded the idea that psychology shouldn't be comprised of just internal thoughts and feelings, but it should be observable. And the focus should be on the relationship between a stimulus in, in the environment and a response. [00:11:00] So most people are familiar with Watson's. Um. Theories of psychology through Pavlov, Pavlov's dogs.
I feel like that's probably the most commonly known, um, example. But the idea of this is called respondent conditioning or classical conditioning, and that's essentially where there is a response in the environment, an antecedent res, an, I'm sorry, a stimulus in the environment, antecedent stimulus in the environment that has an effect on a response.
Um, an example of this would be a bright light shining in your eyes, and then your pupil's dilating. So the stimulus in the environment is the bright rut, bright light, and the response is the dilation of your pupils. Um, as we've already covered in the field of a BA, we talked about this a little bit in our collaboration podcast, A BA sometimes has a bad reputation, and it really started with this Watson guy.
So in 1924, he wrote an article and claimed that he could take, this is a quote, [00:12:00] a dozen healthy. Well-formed and by my own special world, bring them up and I will guarantee to take any one of them at random, random and train him to become any type of specialist I might select. Dr. Lawyer artist, he basically makes the claim that through behavioral, uh, through the behavioral lens of psychology, you could take any blank slate, any tiny baby and raise them and control all of the environments, uh, all of the environment to make them into whatever you want.
He basically throws genetics and, and innate capabilities out the window. And, and that's creepy And a
Amy Wonkka: yes,
Kate Grandbois: to say the least. Right? Like how messed up is that?
Amy Wonkka: It's the makings of kind of like a, like a creepy sci-fi book. It's the
Kate Grandbois: Truman Show. Did you ever see that movie? The sh Truman show? I really, I recently rewatched that.
Have you seen that recently?
Amy Wonkka: No, I, I should rewatch it. Oh, it's
Kate Grandbois: so good. And when he like sails out into the, the, into the fake [00:13:00] sea and he's so angry and they capsize his ship on purpose. Oh, so good. So basically, this guy Watson, he gets a whole bunch of flack from pretty much everybody for making such an outlandish claim.
Um, and that was in 1924. So then we jump ahead to 1938 about, I don't know, I don't do math 10 ish years later. And he writes, and Skinner BF Skinner wrote a book called The Behavior of Organisms. I think everybody in our audience knows who Skinner is. Most of us have had some interaction with, um, BF Skinner having gone through the sciences, um, in college and in graduate school.
And the book Behavior of Organisms summarizes his laboratory work from 1930 to 1937. He basically takes Watson's theory and expands on it a little bit. He says that respondent behavior or classical classical conditioning of this relationship between the environmental stimulus [00:14:00] and the response is a reflex.
That it's a stimulus in the, it's the stimulus in the environment that elicits the response and that behavior is changed less by the stimulus that precedes it and more by a stimulus that follows it. So for the first time in history, he introduces the idea that behavior is shaped by a consequence, by something that happens after the response.
Amy Wonkka: And he's kind of, he's kind of sorting into two buckets. Right. So there are the things that are more, that are just gonna happen automatically, right? Right. The, the bright light is gonna make your pupils dilate. That's just, it's just reflex. Exactly. And then that's different from. All of these other behaviors, which are not like that.
Correct. Those are related to what happens after them. Correct.
Kate Grandbois: Okay. So this relationship between an environmental stimulus, a response, and then another environmental stimulus is referred to as the three term contingency. And our listeners might [00:15:00] think that we've jumped off a cliff and they're like, what the hell is this?
I did not sign up for a history lesson in, in in skin area, you know, behaviorism. But understanding the three term contingency is a crucial component of understanding verbal behavior. So. Hang in there. Stay with us. Stay with us. Um, so this three term contin contingency, the idea that behavior is more shaped by the environmental stimulus that comes after a behavior, after a response becomes known as operant behavior.
The word operant, you're gonna hear a lot because we call them verbal operas and verbal behavior. So it's this idea that the, the three, the environmental stimulus after the response is what shapes the behavior.
Amy Wonkka: And sometimes we see that captured as, like, if the listeners can visualize, like on your far left you see the letter A, and then you see an arrow to the right, and then you see the letter B, and then you [00:16:00] see an arrow to the right.
And then you see the letter C to kind of conceptualize that.
Kate Grandbois: A, B, C.
Amy Wonkka: Yeah, like a, the antecedent, that first stimulus, antecedent
Kate Grandbois: what comes before a.
Amy Wonkka: Mm-hmm. B behavior, the thing in the middle, the thing that we're focused on, the response. Right. And then that C on the far right, that's the consequence. That's what comes after, right?
Kate Grandbois: Yes. A, B, C. So a lot of you out there who have worked with BCBA's, you'll hear A, B, C data. A, B, C is the acronym for this. Three term contingency, antecedent behavior consequence.
Amy Wonkka: Okay. Okay.
Kate Grandbois: Thank you. Thank you Amy for, elaborate for pausing us there. This is dense. This is dense. We're gonna get through it.
Amy Wonkka: It's intense, right?
Kate Grandbois: It's intense. So when we were preparing for this, we were trying to come up with some examples of this A, B, c, this three term contingency that would be relatable. Um, and some of the ones we came up with, I think most of us have interacted with at least one, at least once. Um, the, one of the examples was a phone rings.
So a phone [00:17:00] rings in your environment. Nowadays, you might just let it ring 'cause it's probably a spammer and nobody has a home phone and home phone anymore. But let's say the phone rings and nobody has caller id and it's back in the olden times. And that's the A part, right? That's the A part. So there's your ans your antecedent, right?
Okay. You, the B the behavior is you pick up the phone. Okay? And the C is, someone said you pick up the phone and say hello. And the c the consequence, the stimulus after the response is that someone is talking to you. Someone wants to share something with you. Somebody has something to tell you. Somebody is communicating with you.
So A, B, C phone rings. You pick up the phone and say hello, someone is talking to you. If you learned over time that when you picked up the phone, you got shocked or somebody screamed at you and told you that you were a stupid butt face, you would probably learn pretty quickly that when the phone rang.[00:18:00]
You would not pick up the phone or you would pick it up and throw it, or you would pick it up and smash it or something. The consequence that happened after you picked up the phone would shape what you did when the phone rang.
Amy Wonkka: Okay, let's do some more. Can you redo some more? Let's do another one. Yes.
Another A
Kate Grandbois: What's another A? Another A. So, um, a kid tantruming in the store. Okay. This is a big one for all of us who have children, 'cause we love them. But sometimes, sometimes it can be a challenge. So let's say your kid has, uh, your, you've got your kid in the grocery cart and you're pushing your kid through the aisles and your kid sees the lollipops on the shelf.
Amy Wonkka: Yeah. 'cause they put those right there, right where you out. Right?
Kate Grandbois: So the stimulus in the environment, the antecedent A is the lollipops on the shelf. Then your kid starts screaming, I wanna lollipop. Or if they're younger, they're just like having an absolute tantrum and being like, just, you know, everybody's judging you.
You like, you're [00:19:00] tired, you're like, goddammit, it's hard. It's where, ugh, just be quiet. And you give the kid, you like, take the bag off the shelf. You can, you tell I've been stuck inside with my children for, for three weeks. You take the bag off the shelf, you rip it open and you give the kid a lollipop. The response was this, the tantrum and the consequence was the lollipop, right?
That's the third. Giving them the lollipop, eating the lollipop, the neck, egg. Next test. And to seed. A being. The lollipop. Being the lollipop. B.
Amy Wonkka: B, your kid loses their noodles,
Kate Grandbois: loses their noodles, and C, they get a lollipop. Right? Next time you take that kid down the aisle at the grocery store and they see those lollipops, I doubt they're gonna calmly say, excuse me, mommy, could I please?
They're British. Could I please have a small, could I please have a lollipop? No. They're gonna lose their minds and they're gonna have a massive tantrum in the grocery cart because the consequence that the sea has [00:20:00] shaped the behavior of the beef. So back to our history lesson. I think that's a, those are likely common scenarios people have interacted with.
This is a huge deal in the field at the time in history because up, which is 38 ish. Yes. So it's old 1938. So, so at this point in time, no one had really considered the interaction with the environment and the, the word contingency. So something happened con happening contingent on something else, the contingencies between a behavior or a response and the environment.
So Skinner took this idea and ran with it. He wrote a lot more over the next decade. Some books that people have, may have, may have heard of his Walden two Science and VER and Human Behavior. There is a lot more published overall on this idea of the three term contingency and operant behavior. And in 1957, along comes Skinner's analysis of verbal behavior, um, which is really the whole point of this, of this [00:21:00] entire podcast.
So verbal behavior, the, the, the, the book, the piece of literature, it's, it was a massive, massive undertaking. And Skinner really felt like this was his biggest contribution to the universe. He started writing it in 1931, but it wasn't finished until 1957. Um, it is incredibly dense and it is very well known for being the most difficult of his, of all of his works.
And he did a lot. He's people's, and like we said, people spend their entire careers focusing on verbal behavior, but at the root of what verbal behavior was, is that Skinner took the idea of the three term contingency. He took the idea of consequences in the environment. And added it to communication. He said that communication and communication acts communicative behavior was also subject to this three term contingency.
Amy Wonkka: And this was different than like the prevailing knowledge at the time.
Kate Grandbois: Massively.
Amy Wonkka: Which was set up by [00:22:00] linguists. Like prior to that it was all a linguistic,
Kate Grandbois: right? Interpret. So prior to this, it was the, it was the form of people were really interested in the form of language, pH names, morphemes syntax.
There was a lot related to personality traits and how, you know, not necessarily related to acquisition of language, but the use of language. Why people, you know, it was their will, it was their free will, it was their, their wishes, their intentions. It was all wrapped up in hypotheticals, cognitive processes, all those kinds of things.
We didn't have MRI machines, we didn't know a lot about the brain. Um, and for most of speech pathologists have probably learned about Noam Chomsky. That was only a handful of years later where he, he proposed his language, his mythical language acquisition device, the LAD, where he said that children are born with this, um, innate ability to acquire language.
And Skinner's like, no, no, no guys, and we take this for granted, but this was a monumental piece. Um, it's only when you say the word apple, it's only an apple because [00:23:00] someone handed you an apple. There was a consequence after you used that word that gave it meaning. And this was, um, this was a really, really big deal.
So he focused on analyzing verbal behavior in, so Skinner's, let me go back. Skinner's main point was he was very focused on analyzing verbal behavior in the context of human behavior at large, just in general. And about 30 years later, a guy named Mark, Mark Berg, who is still around, um, he started. Looking at verbal behavior and this three term contingency and how it mapped onto typical development.
And he has focused a lot of his work into language assessment and language intervention using this as a lens. Um, in 1977, he wrote an analysis of sign language. He, 1978, he wrote a program for teaching verbal behaviors to persons whom language is present or absent. So he really starts looking at disordered language [00:24:00] and, and the, and through the lens of verbal behavior.
We have a long list of web of references on our website. Um. Mark Berg also has a lot of trainings online that I have taken that can be used, that you can get a certificate, you can use them for ASHA pd if you are interested in learning more about verbal behavior and development. Um, they're really, really in depth and really wonderful.
I think he's through the Florida Institute of Technology. Don't quote me, I'm probably saying something really wrong, but somewhere in Florida, I think. Um, and I think he is most well known for the VB map. So he is an author of the VB Map, which is an assessment tool we will talk a little bit about later.
Um, I don't know, Amy, if there's anything you wanna say about just the work of the VB map and how it fits into this historical timeline.
Amy Wonkka: Um, I think, you know, it's something, it's a tool. It's also like a curriculum planning tool, so it's something that [00:25:00] I've seen used a lot in different environments by multiple service providers.
I think it. You know, I love the guide that comes with it, and we'll talk more about it later. But it does a really nice job just kind of translating some of these early elementary, you know, verbal operas into a bit more understandable language. And it, because when he developed it, he did align it with, develop typical development and collaborate with other people, including a dual certified S-L-P-B-C-B-A.
I think, you know, that, that makes it a bit more accessible and interdisciplinary. Um, so yeah, it's a, it's a nice, it's a nice tool.
Kate Grandbois: Oh yeah. I, I completely agree. Um, the other thing, I mean, verbal, the research of verbal behavior from a historical standpoint has continued and does continue. Um, we have a lot more information on our website about other resources you can read.
You know, people have gone on to reclassify verbal [00:26:00] behavior, things like topographical based responding and selection based responding, which is very, very complicated and we are not gonna get into that. But if you do wanna read more about it, we'll have some references listed on our website. So that is the history of verbal behavior.
It was very important to go through it. So, so, so what is it, Kate? What, what
Amy Wonkka: is verbal behavior like?
Kate Grandbois: So I think this is the beginning of the terminology split. So the definition of verbal behavior is behavior that is reinforced through the mediation of other persons. So if you think about that, it's, he's, Skinner is saying that verbal behavior is just behavior that is being reinforced, or there's a contingency that is being mediated through another person in the environment.
And the reason that I say this is the beginning of. The terminology split between the two fields is that we call that communication in general. So the definition of [00:27:00] verbal behavior is communication at large. It's not speech.
Amy Wonkka: So in regular, in regular people words, what you're saying is that verbal behavior, behavior there, there has to be another person present that you're communicating with.
Kate Grandbois: Yes. There has to be another person. Well, not necessarily present. It could be email, but your, the behavior itself has to interact with a consequence that is mediated by another person. So again, back to that three term contingency, it's all about the contact with the environment and the consequence that's being provided by the environment.
That is a consequence mediated by a person.
Amy Wonkka: So no communication partner. At all, whether that's like in physical presence or virtual presence, not not verbal behavior.
Kate Grandbois: Correct. Correct. And this, so I, I slightly misspoke earlier when I said that, that it's not speech. It can be speech, but it could also be lots of other things.
So verbal behavior is sign, [00:28:00] it can be writing, speaking, using a communication device. It's any behavior that's reinforced through the mediation of people in general. And this is an important, yeah.
Amy Wonkka: So is it also, is it also just behavior? Behavior? Like, if I like knock my juice cup on the ground,
Kate Grandbois: if that behavior is mediated through a response from another person, then it could fit the definition.
Amy Wonkka: Okay. So, and what we would think of like as a, with my speech pathology hat firmly, firmly seated on my head, I would look at that as kind of pre linguistic
Kate Grandbois: gesture,
Amy Wonkka: right?
Kate Grandbois: Yes. So, but it is communication. So that's sort of where we have, you know, our two fields sort of branching off right from the start. So you say tomato, I say tomato, I say request, you say manned, you know, this is the, this is the beginning of the difference in terminology.
And I think it's important to, now [00:29:00] that we've gone through what it is and where it came from, I think it's really important to talk about what it is not. So verbal behavior is not forcing people to speak and not use their device, which is the definition that I was originally told. That's just bad clinical decision making and maybe bad a, BA where someone said that, that that's what they were doing and it was verbal behavior.
Um. Verbal behavior is not a program or protocol or a hierarchy that teaches speech. And I think over the years there are, like you had said there, we know we have our field. All of our fields have come a long way in the last 25 to 30 years. And I think over the years, clinicians have used some of these, you know, loose definitions from above and called them verbal behavior.
But at its core, that's not what it is. And I think it's really real. If anybody is listening who has had a bad run in, you were just given the correct information about what verbal behavior is. Um, and I encourage you to share this podcast with anyone who, [00:30:00] who you would like to, to, to correct on, you know, put them back in their lane.
Amy Wonkka: So it's not a set curriculum.
Kate Grandbois: No. Doing
Amy Wonkka: verbal behavior is not a set curriculum where you're doing step one first and then you do step two, and then you do step three, and then you do step four.
Kate Grandbois: To my knowledge, no. I, I could stand to be corrected and I, I welcome the feedback if anyone would like to send me that information.
I think there are, there are curriculums out there that are rooted in verbal behavior, like you mentioned the VB map that has a very, um, and the VB map is a great tool. This is not a knock on it, not at all. We're gonna talk about how great it is later, but I think that there are some people who misconstrue what that curriculum is and then call it verbal behavior.
But really what they're doing is the curriculum related to the VB map, which is rooted in verbal behavior as a framework,
Amy Wonkka: which is similar to education [00:31:00] as a whole. Right? Education, we have theories of education. It doesn't mean this set third grade curriculum, right, is all of. Sciences trial. Right, right.
Or
Announcer: whatnot.
Kate Grandbois: Right. Okay. Um, and I mean the, you know, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of variability. We have a big country, there's a lot of variability geographically with what best standards are, what best practices are. Um, but verbal behavior in and of itself, if you look, if you go straight to the horse's mouth and look at Skinner's work and look at the work of all of the people who came after him, verbal behavior is not any of these things that it has grown to have a reputation to be.
So learning bucket number two, what are the verbal operas? And I think we agree that before we get into what the verbal operants are, we really need to go over what the three term contingency really is. Right.
Amy Wonkka: I think so. I mean, I, I think that one thing [00:32:00] that has been confusing for me when I was first learning more about verbal behavior were the different definitions that the field of applied behavior analysis uses for kind of common terminology that, that we just use colloquially, like reinforcement and punishment positive.
And negative those things don't mean exactly the same thing that they do, just colloquially in conversation in the field of applied behavior analysis. Right. So I think sorting some of that out makes sense.
Kate Grandbois: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and I think people, people get these terms wrong so frequently that we really sort of take it for granted.
And before we jump into that, we should say we are going to put a visual support
Announcer: Yes. To a
Kate Grandbois: c people. We're gonna put a visual support up on our website to help explain this because it is very confusing. Even as we were preparing for this episode, we, we may or may not have had to have had to practice this a couple of times to make sure that we explained it the right way, [00:33:00] um, without getting lost in the weeds.
So there will be a visual support up on our website. We recommend that you take a look at it. Yes, we re But not if you're driving. If you're driving, you should not. If you're
Amy Wonkka: driving,
Kate Grandbois: if you're driving at late, what? You should not look at it now. You should not look at it now. No. Okay. So there are. I want you to visualize four different quadrants, right?
So there are two kinds of consequences. There are, there are reinforcers and there are punishers. Generally speaking, reinforcers will increase a behavior and punishers will decrease a behavior.
Amy Wonkka: And when we talk about increasing or decreasing those behaviors, we're talking about the future. So if something is being reinforced, it's more likely that it will happen in the future.
In a similar circumstance, if something's being punished, it's less likely that something will happen in the future in a [00:34:00] similar circumstance, right?
Kate Grandbois: So you have two columns. There are reinforcers and then there are Punishers. Now, on the left hand side, you've got another. Row heading, right? What it's with, positive and negative.
So there are four quadrants. There is positive reinforcement, there is negative reinforcement, there is positive punishment, and there is negative punishment. Now we're gonna go over positive reinforcement first. The definition of positive reinforcement is that when something is added after a behavior, that increases the future frequency of that behavior.
So back to the A VC, you've got your antecedent. What happens before the behavior, the behavior itself, in the context of this talk, it's communication of a communication related behavior, and then you have your C your consequence. So a positive reinforcer is something that is added after the behavior that increases the future frequency of that behavior.[00:35:00]
Let's talk about an example of positive reinforcement. Okay. A mother, we already talked about this one a little bit earlier in the episode. The mother puts the child in a grocery store cart to do some shopping, and the child tantrums, the mother gives the child a lollipop, and the tantrum frequency increases.
Now, that means in the future, when the child goes in the grocery cart, it is more likely that the child will tantrum because it was given a positive reinforcer after that behavior. And
Amy Wonkka: positive in this case means, plus the mom gave something to the child, added something to the child, not positive. Oh, happy feelings.
It was a good thing,
Kate Grandbois: right? So that's another common misconception, is that the positive and negative negative of this is positive feelings, happy feelings, or negative, unpleasant feelings. And what we're really talking about is positive reinforcement. Something is added. Negative reinforcement is a good segue into negative [00:36:00] reinforcement is when something is removed.
So a negative reinforcer negative reinforcement is that is when something is removed after a behavior that increases the future frequency of that behavior. So that is very different. It's negative reinforcement when something is added, but the behavior is still increasing something's No, Amy's shaking her head and me like, no, no, no, you said it wrong.
Again, negative reinforcement is when something is removed. This is why we need the visuals for it. I know when something is removed after a behavior that increases the future frequency of that behavior. So example, the mother puts the child in the grocery store cart to do some shopping in the child tantrums.
As soon as the tantrum happens, the mother removes the child from the cart or the store and goes home. So what was removed in that? How did, how was that negative reinforcement
Amy Wonkka: that the [00:37:00] yucky experience of being in the grocery store?
Kate Grandbois: Right. And that increases the future likelihood that when the child gets in the grocery store cart, they're going to tantrum so that the cart is removed or the grocery store is removed.
So negative reinforcement, it's not necessarily unpleasant. Something is removed after a behavior that increases the future frequency of that behavior.
Amy Wonkka: So just to recap, positive reinforcement, something is added, plus it makes it more likely for that behavior to happen in the future In a similar circumstance, negative reinforcement doesn't necessarily mean bad feelings, just means subtraction.
Something is subtracted that makes it more likely for that behavior to happen in the future in a similar circumstance. Right?
Kate Grandbois: So that's reinforcement when behavior is increasing. Let's talk about punishment. Punishment. We are, I mean, that's another huge word, right? We think of lots of things we do as punishment in our, in our culture and society.
And it's [00:38:00] always bad. Yeah, it's always, it's always negative. But the, from a scientific perspective for this as a science punishment is when something is added or removed after a behavior that decreases the future frequency of that behavior. So in punishment, behavior is going down, behavior is being reduced, and punishment has a thousand things that go along with it that we're not gonna get into today.
There's lots of negative, um, byproducts of using a lot of punishment. We are not gonna get into that. We are not recommending any of these things. We are simply just explaining what all of them are. So positive punishment. So by, based on our definition of POS positive, it's when something is added, but the behavior is decreasing.
So positive punishment is when something is added after a behavior that decreases the future frequency of that behavior. The exam example, a mother puts a child in the grocery store cart to do some shopping and the child tantrums, the mother yells at the child and the tantrum [00:39:00] frequency decreases. I may or may not have been guilty of this myself as a parent.
So what is added in that scenario is the yelling and the next time the child gets in the grocery store cart, they are likely not going to tantrum if you, if you yelled properly. No, I'm just kidding.
Amy Wonkka: You did your job.
Kate Grandbois: That was a horrible thing to say. I take it all back. It's retracted from the record, but scientifically speaking, in a grocery store near you, right.
Scientifically speaking, pun positive Punishment is where something is added and the behavior decreases. So negative punishment, we know that negative is when something is removed. Negative punishment is when something is removed after a behavior that decreases the future frequency of that behavior. So example, the mother puts the child in the grocery store cart and the child has a lollipop in their hand.
They're already in the their cart, they're sipping on the lo, they're eating their lollipop. The child starts a tantrum. The mother takes [00:40:00] away the lollipop and the tantrum frequency decreases. So what was removed in that scenario was the lollipop and the tantrum frequency decreases. That is, that's the lay of the land.
Amy Wonkka: I feel like thinking of it, conceptualizing it as that chart with pluses and minuses is so helpful for me because I think we have so many emotional connections to words like positive and negative and punishment, and so better understanding that in this case, it's more. Arithmetic than it is.
Kate Grandbois: Yes. These are, these are words that in the science of a, b, a, have scientific definitions that are used in a laboratory, not things that are used in your everyday life.
I mean, we use a lot of these principles in our everyday life, but we have layman terms that are not congruent with how these terms are being used.
Amy Wonkka: So Kate, we are thinking about verbal behavior and as speech pathologists or [00:41:00] others who are working with people who have communication needs, we are probably mostly thinking about behaviors we want to increase, right?
So that would be reinforcer things that are more likely to happen in the future under similar circumstances. And I know there are a couple of different types of reinforcers. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Kate Grandbois: So there are, I think in terms of, again, just like you said, using verbal behavior as a backdrop, the whole purpose of this, the word reinforcer does come up a lot in the definitions of the verbal operant.
Um, there are reinforcers for specific items. Uh, I'm, I'm sorry. There are specific reinforcers. So, um, when we talk about mans, we'll talk about reinforcement that is very specific to the manned, but there are also generalized conditioned reinforcers that also's lot of work comes up. What's that? What's that?
That's a lot of words. That's a lot of words. Generalized conditioned reinforcer. So a generalized conditioned reinforcer is a reinforcer that has been [00:42:00] paired with many unconditioned and conditioned reinforcers. So without getting too technical about this, it's basically an item that you can exchange for many, many other items, and you don't have to be particularly motivated for anything in particular for that reinforcer to work.
Money is the best example. So money is a generalized con, is likely the most potent, generalized conditioned reinforcer because you don't necessarily have to be motivated for anything in particular. And you can exchange money for any number of basically an infinite number of things. Um, a lot of times in classrooms we see other kinds of generalized reinforcers, like token economies, um, stickers.
I don't know, other kinds of items that could be exchanged in like a classroom store or traded in for more time at recess, all of those kinds of things. [00:43:00] Um, praise is another one. So praise is something that is another kind of conditioned reinforcer that we see a lot because it's not something that is specific to an item.
It's been paired with a lot of different items over time.
Amy Wonkka: And I think that that's something that's interesting to think about, uh, when you're working with people with autism or other developmental, um, disabilities, where that may or may not be a, a
Kate Grandbois: motivator for them or a reinforcer for them. That's such a good point.
And this brings us back to the definition of a reinforcer. So if the behavior is not going up. It is not a reinforcer. So if you think, oh, but I told him, good job. Well, little Johnny has autism and it makes him have all the uncomfortable feelings when you give him social interaction. Social interaction could be a punisher if the behavior is going down.
So just because we think of something as a [00:44:00] reinforcer, we think, oh, but it's a positive thing. It's a happy things. It gives us all these happy feelings. As a society, if the behavior is not going up, it is not a reinforcer by definition.
Amy Wonkka: I think that's such an important thing for clinicians to be aware of.
Um, and not to get too far off course, but another piece that I remember learning and found really helpful clinically was just the idea that just because something is a reinforcer for one thing in one context, it doesn't mean it's gonna work all the time for everything. Right. So you mentioned money. I'm a big fan of money.
I have bills to pay. I need, I need the money to pay my bills. And, you know, I also enjoy praise. Like, I, I feel good, you know, if, if people say kind things to me, um, I love my job, but if my only reinforcer was praise
Kate Grandbois: or tacos, if you got paid in tacos, I'd work for a day real hard, maybe two. Yeah. After a week tacos, [00:45:00] I'm out on tacos.
Amy Wonkka: I mean, there's only so many
Kate Grandbois: tacos
Amy Wonkka: a person can eat, even. There's only so many tacos.
Kate Grandbois: So that's why generalized conditioned reinforcers are so powerful because they can be exchanged for a limitless number of things. Well, yeah. Hypothetically limitless. Yes. Okay. So we have an understanding of what the three term contingency is.
We have an understanding of different kinds of what reinforcers are, what reinforcement is, what punishment is, and what the different kinds of reinforcers are. Let's finally, after all of this time, talk about what the verbal operas are. So I think the most common one that speech pathologists come into contact with, at least in pediatrics, is the man.
And this is the one that I think Demand. Demand, yeah. Demand. And every time I use this word, I feel like I'm cheating. I know I said that. I know I said that to you before, but I really do feel, I'll say it in a meeting and be like, oh, I hope nobody, I hope other speech pathologists didn't hear me say that.
Feel like, I [00:46:00] feel like I did a bad thing, but a man had, the man has a very specific definition that I think is very important when, um, for collaboration, it's a, it's, you know, it's really important for speech pathologists to understand what that is. We think of it as a request, but it's not entirely what it is a man is.
Here's the definition, verbal behavior in which the form of the response is under the control of a specific motivation, and it has a history of a specific reinforcement. So it's, it's a lot of words. It's another, it's, again, it's a lot of words. It's a communication act that is motivated by something very specific and it's reinforced by something that is very specific.
So, Amy, can you give us an example of what Amanda is?
Amy Wonkka: So. One of the classic examples is you get stuff, right? So let's say we have a boy and our boy is thirsty and he says water and [00:47:00] his mom gives him
Kate Grandbois: water right away. Right? So back to the, back to the definition, he was motivated by his thirst. It was a specific motivation in place.
The request, the man, the actual communication act, the form of the request was specific and the reinforcement was specific.
Amy Wonkka: Mm-hmm. And in this context too, the specific reinforcement, I think makes, makes a really important distinction. If you had given him a dollar that's, that's not, that's not, you know, that's not doing what he wants, he would've shaped
Kate Grandbois: the word water to mean money.
Right. Right. 'cause it's all about the consequence. Right. And this is the, this is the difference in the verbal behavior lens is that it is rooted in the consequences that happen after the communication act. Yes. So our man's always request.
Amy Wonkka: No. So I think this is interesting, and this is a piece where speech language pathologists, we might, we would incorporate a lot of different pragmatic functions kind of under the umbrella [00:48:00] of manned, right?
So manned is certainly a request, but it's also a protest. It's kind of all of that regulatory communication. It's, it's getting things or making things go away, getting circumstances or making circumstances go away. So it's about right. Well, I think
Kate Grandbois: those are the most common. Um, I feel like any, if there is any communication act that has a specific reinforcement, I can't think of anything outside of requesting and making, getting things and making it go away.
But, and maybe if a listener has an example, they can, they can shoot it over to us. But I think you're right. That's the most important distinction is that it doesn't. Have to be. We think of it as a request, but it doesn't have to be.
Amy Wonkka: And I think another really interesting thing also is it doesn't have to be symbolic communication.
So mans can be pres symbolic communication. They can be gestural. And I think this is another piece where adding the verbal behavior, [00:49:00] conceptualization of language has been very helpful to me as somebody who works with a lot of more emergent communicators because it helps me classify some of these pres symbolic behaviors and sort them into different categories so that I can better teach and, and shape progressively more symbolic communication.
Kate Grandbois: Right. So I was, I was having some imposter syndrome a couple of days ago while we were planning this. And I reached out to A, B, C, BA friend and I asked just passing the buck if you know, when someone is, you know, sitting and having. A snack and they say, and the someone you know hands them the glass of water, doesn't say, do you want a glass of water?
But just hands them the glass of water and they say, all done. And they shake their head, push it away. Is that a man? But they say, yes, yes, that is a man. Because it is under a specific motivation with a specific [00:50:00] reinforcement, the item is taken away.
Amy Wonkka: So we've kind of back to our quadrant that we were talking about before.
We've given an example of both positive and negative reinforcement.
Kate Grandbois: Right, but the end Exactly. And the behavior is increasing. So it's still reinforcement. It's more likely in the future that if they are not thirsty and given a glass of water and shove it, it, and said all done, the water would then, you know, they would say, all done, that that behavior would increase in the future.
So that's a man and I think that's a, a really common one. Let's talk about tact. So tact is another thing that I think it, what'd you say?
Amy Wonkka: We, we have a colloquial definition for tact. Right? Like she said it was tact. Not the same thing. Oh,
Kate Grandbois: not the same thing. Right, right, right. Not the same thing. No, no, no.
So I think a lot of speech pathologists think of it as a comment. Mm-hmm. But it's not entirely what it is. Same, sort of similar to the Manding situation. So the definition of tact, [00:51:00] the form of the communication act is under the control of a nonverbal stimulus. And the history of reinforcement is conditioned reinforcement.
So sort of going along with the same water example, an example of this would be, you know, a boy and his family driving along a beautiful sea, you know, countryside, the seaside. And they, he sees the ocean and he says water. And the mother says, yes, that's the ocean. So in that example. The communication act saying the word water was under the control of a non-verbal stimulus.
So this is him interacting with the environment, with his senses. You could, he sees the water. I guess you could also say if you were walking along and he heard a waterfall and said water, and someone said, yes, that's a waterfall. He was using the word water under because of an interaction, a non-verbal interaction [00:52:00] with, with an environmental stimulus that was non-verbal, is what, how I meant to say it.
Amy Wonkka: And I think that that is really cool because that gets us back to when we think about the verbal behavior, classification of language as an addition to what you're already doing as a speech language pathologist. It helps you really break down not only the consequence is this, you know, a, a punishment.
It'll happen less often in the future or reinforce it. It'll happen more often. But also that like what, what was the antecedent like? Triggered the communication. And I think, you know, thinking about things we see, smell, hear, touch, all of those, all of those components, you know, would trigger communication differently than feeling hungry inside our bodies.
Definitely.
Kate Grandbois: So the only other, there's two more that I think are high, high frequency, um, verbal behavior, verbal operant, the koic and the introvert, [00:53:00] the koic. You, I, I think of often as speech imitation. Um, the, I feel like
Amy Wonkka: what, I feel like that's the closest definition to what we would think of as SLPs. Yes.
For me, this one, I'm like, okay, that, that kind of maps onto an existing thing in my brain.
Kate Grandbois: Yes. So let's try it. Okay. Let's do a koic.
Amy Wonkka: Okay.
Kate Grandbois: Water. Water.
Amy Wonkka: There you go.
Kate Grandbois: We did it. Yay. Yay. So there is an actual definition of koic. Um, I
Amy Wonkka: have a book in front of me, which is the VB map manual. So page nine says, technically speaking the koic is controlled by a verbal sd.
So that's what this right. A, a verbal stimulus, think of it that way. Mm-hmm. That matches has point to point correspondence with the response. A coic behavior produces [00:54:00] generalized conditioned reinforcement such as praise and detention.
Kate Grandbois: So there, I mean I think that this is a less confusing, I think where speech pathologists get into tricky water with this one is we call it stim ability.
Um, you know, if you are trying to get a student or client to produce a certain sequence of sounds, you may try to do it with imitation. See if they can imitate you and. I think often a coic are used for the same purpose by A-B-C-V-A, but they may not be looking, they don't have necessarily have that background in speech sound acquisition.
No. Or, or a motor development. Um, so that can be, I think, a discussion to be had with the BCBA about why they're using a coex. Um, you know, as we call them, speech, STI ability and, and
Amy Wonkka: a learning opportunity and an opportunity to collaborate more [00:55:00] effectively and share what we know
Kate Grandbois: with others. Shameless plug, go listen to our collaboration episode for more information on that.
And the last one is, is introvert. Volts to me have always been a little confusing. Uh, in my notes here, I have written, it's a doozy, so it may not be a doozy for everyone, but for me it's a doozy. So an I verbal is where the form of the communication re the response is under the control of a verbal stimulus that does not have point to point correspondence with the verbal stimulus and has a history of generalized condition reinforcement, which is extremely confusing.
So it's essentially that what it was, so many words. So many words. That was so many, so many words. So I think the best way to think of this is that the response, the antecedent, is a verbal response. So back to your A, B, C, the behavior. The word, the selection of an icon on a screen. The sign that was made, the gesture that was [00:56:00] made, the antecedent to that is a verbal stimulus.
And what happens after it is some sort of condition, generalized conditioned reinforcement. You that's its history most of the time. So let's try one. Amy, do you want something to drink? Drink. I'd like some water. There you go. So Amy used the same word water, but instead of seeing water or hearing water or being motivated for water, she was given a verbal stimulus, a question to which you used the word water as a response.
Amy Wonkka: And I think to, to go back to the VV map manual really quickly, they do a really nice job kind of explaining what Kate has just told us, right? So the difference between a manned a man is something that. You know that antecedent really is that personal motivation. So the A of the A, B, C is the personal motivation, the tact that antecedent is really the elements of the [00:57:00] physical environment.
And then for a coex and introverts that antecedent is someone is some verbal stimuli. So thinking about those different antecedents really helps you sort out, you know what these, how applied behavior analysis framework is going to sort these different types of communication functions. It really is.
Kind of connected to that antecedent part.
Kate Grandbois: And I think the, we had said this, I apologies if we already said this during this episode. We've said this to each other multiple times at this point, but to me it's sort of an iceberg. So the top, you know, you're on the water, you can only see the top. That top that you can only see is verbal behavior, but there's a whole mountain underneath.
So everything that this speech pathologist brings to the table, knowledge of development, oral motor structures, phonology, you know, semantics, syntax, all of those things are a wonderful [00:58:00] foundation. And I always felt that verbal behavior was what I was missing. And it's the tippy, tippy top. And if you see the whole mountain, I think they compliment each other so well.
Amy Wonkka: I agree with you. I think that looking and adding this into your toolbox as a speech language pathologist can be very helpful, especially if you are working with somebody who doesn't just automatically generalize in, in a, B, A. They talk a lot about generalizing or your ability to learn a skill and then apply that skill with new people, new environments, new tasks.
Some of, some of the folks who who I work with are able to do that readily. You learn a new word, you're able to use it in different ways with new people at different times in different environments. I think that when you are supporting folks who, that might be a bigger challenge for being able to kind of look at these different verbal operas and think about the different ways in which the people are using the vocabulary that you've been taught, um, can be really helpful [00:59:00] in terms of planning and just optimizing your client's success.
Kate Grandbois: Definitely. So I feel like that's a good segue into bucket number three, our third and final learning bucket. How is verbal behavior even relevant to the work of the SLP? I feel like we've touched on little pieces of this, um, throughout the episode, but for me, one of the biggest pieces of value has been what you just said.
It's been. The different lens that I can look through when I'm looking at my clients and why they, why are they not the, how are they doing what they're doing or what happened in their developmental trajectory, but why? So what is the reinforcement? What, what are the environmental variables that are, um, contributing particularly for our learners with autism who may have very specific channels of reinforcement.
You know, they may not, you know, they might be motivated by strings instead of praise, or they might be motivated by something else, [01:00:00] very idiosyncratic to them. Um, I feel like that has been one of the largest contributors for me. Um, that, and collaborating. It's so hard to collaborate with another professional if you're using a whole different set of jargon.
Amy Wonkka: Right. And I mean, I, I think back to our entire podcast about collaborating with a b, a professionals. I mean, I think there can be. There can be challenges there because we are approaching things from a different lens. Both of us feel passionately about trying to support our clients best, and if we can't have a shared a shared discussion around, you know, how we're approaching a particular challenge, it, it makes it, it can make it really hard.
And on the flip side, it can really help you optimize your services if you're able to have a productive discussion where you're using this very comprehensive, um, method of [01:01:00] looking at what a client is and isn't able to do in a present moment.
Kate Grandbois: Definitely. Um, I really wanted to take just a couple minutes and talk about the BB map as an assessment tool.
Sure. Because I, I feel like it's a great compliment to our traditional battery of speech and language tests. Um, and you are much more familiar with it than I am.
Amy Wonkka: So one of the things that's great about the VB map as an assessment tool is that it's criterion referenced. So criterion referenced assessments are going to allow us to get a much better description of what a client actually can do.
I feel like, particularly for emergent communicators, we may be able to administer a standardized test. We may be able to get some information about that. Most of that information is about what this person can't do. I don't, I, I, that's not as helpful information for me as a clinician. I wanna know what you can [01:02:00] do, where your strength areas are.
Um, I think that was very
Kate Grandbois: well said. We don't need any more information about what you can't do, right? We need information about what you can do.
Amy Wonkka: And I mean, depending on your work environment, you might, right? You probably, if you're outpatient, you need to, you know, submit something to a funding source on a regular interval to qualify for continued service.
But outside of that, as a clinician, that information is the least important information to me. Um, information. So what's nice about the VB map is that it's criterion referenced. It's also banded along developmental strands. So when you look at the tool as a whole, it has three different levels. Level one, level two, and level three skills that are within level one are skills that correspond with, I believe, zero to 12 months old.
Um, and then it moves progressively up from there until it reaches. Yeah, it first [01:03:00] level is zero to 18 months. Sorry, I misspoke. And then level two is 18 to 30 months, and level three includes skills that correspond with a developmental, a typically developmental, um, range of 30 to 48 months. So it looks at all the verbal operas that we talked about today.
The manned attacked the koic and the intro verbal, the koic section was written by somebody who's a duly certified S-L-P-B-C-B-A, which is another thing I really like about this tool. Um, it has been. It has been revised at least once. I have an old copy. So some of that, there are some changes, uh, that have come out more recently, but the changes are based upon feedback from multiple disciplines, which I think is nice.
I also really like that in the introduction, what you get as you get sort of a guidebook that walks you through all of the components and then you get an assessment protocol that you would fill in for your client. And when you [01:04:00] read the manual, it does a really nice job of describing these different verbal operas.
It also does a really nice job encouraging interdisciplinary collaboration.
Kate Grandbois: That, that's my question. So I have been told before that a speech pathologist is not allowed to administer the VB map. Could you please set the record straight?
Amy Wonkka: I would like to set the record straight. They do say I wasn't completely com prepared 'cause I would've just like turned to the page, the manual and quoted it.
They do say that whoever administers the test does need to have basic familiarity with the, with verbal behavior. So you're not gonna be able to administer a verbal behavior based assessment if you've never
Kate Grandbois: heard, if you've never heard of, if you think that verbal behavior is something that it completely is or something.
Amy Wonkka: Right, right. However, they do make the point, and I'm not finding it here, but it's somewhere in the introduction of the manual. They make the point that some sections may be best filled out by a speech language pathologists and that includes the koic [01:05:00] section and I think the linguistic structure section.
So, so it's a
Kate Grandbois: great test to use in the collaborative way.
Amy Wonkka: It's awesome to use in a collaborative way because back to collaboration and how it can be helpful, it's really nice for the speech pathologist to be able to work collectively with maybe a special educator or the BCBA or the EI provider. Fill this out collaboratively and then do whatever additional assessments you feel.
You might do an independent and relational phonological analysis. You might do a Goldman Fristo. You know, you might, you might do parts of the PLS or something like that to supplement this information. Um, but it's a great opportunity to work collaboratively with colleagues and allows you to share your knowledge about speech and language in a way that is task focused.
I think it can be a very helpful tool.
Kate Grandbois: Well, thank you for elaborating on that. I'm a little intimidated by the BB map, even though technically I'm A, B, C, [01:06:00] BA. Don't tell anyone. Okay. It's a helpful tool. Um, I, I feel like just based on time, we have to wrap up, but, um, I don't have, do you have anything else to add?
This was a very, very dense topic and I applaud anyone who is still listening.
Amy Wonkka: If you're not driving, take, take a second to check out that table about punishment and reinforcement. If that, if that is still a little confusing. And I think just to be aware that it's another way to look at language that can add to your practice and.
It could be helpful.
Kate Grandbois: Totally agree. Well, thanks for joining us. Everyone. Don't forget you can use this podcast to get Asha pd. Uh, go to our website, www.lpnerdcast.com, click on the episode and follow the prompts to get your certificate. Uh, find us on Instagram if you're so inclined. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or any other medium where you, where [01:07:00] you come and visit.
Hang out with us. Um, we have some fun episodes coming up. We have implementation plans and an episode or two on feeding and swallowing in schools. So stay tuned and thanks for joining us.
