Kate Grandbois: [00:00:00] Welcome to SLP 

Nerd Cast. I'm Kate. And I'm Amy, and we appreciate you tuning in. Whether you are an SLPA teacher, an EI provider, an allied health professional, or a parent or guardian of somebody with speech and language needs, we hope this podcast will give you some valuable information and keep you at least a little entertained.

In our podcast, we review resources, literature, and discuss issues that are related to the field of speech language pathology. 

You can use this podcast for ASHA Professional Development. For more information about us and certification maintenance hours, go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com. If you don't need a certificate or CMH hours, but would still like a handout about today's episode, you can find that on the episode page as well.

There [00:01:00] are will also be links to any resources or literature that we cite during this episode. There we go. That was, that was fine. Little, that was fine. A new, a new intro for all of our regular list. There we go. Um, I think we are gonna do something a little different today. Before we talk about our learning objectives and the topic, we are going to quickly review our financial and non non-financial disclosures.

So, um, our financial disclosures disclosures are that, um, me, Kate, I am the owner and of Grand Blot Therapy and Consulting, and co-founder of SLP Nerd Cast. Amy is an employee of a public school system and a co-founder, the other co-founder of SLP Nerd, um, non-financial. We are both members of ASHA SIG 12, and we both serve on the a a C Advisory group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children.

I am also a member of the [00:02:00] Berkshire Association for Behavior Analysts and Therapy, otherwise known as babbit. I'm also a member of Mass A BA, um, the Association for Behavior Analysis International, otherwise known as A BAI, and the corresponding speech Pathology and applied Behavior analysis special interest group.

That was a whole lot. Those are all of our financial and non-financial disclosures. Well said. So now that the housekeeping things are out of the way, what are we talking about today? Today 

Amy Wonkka: we are talking about measurable goals and objectives, which is, 

Kate Grandbois: which is gonna be great. Surprisingly, I didn't know that there was so much to know about this.

I was a little on the naive side. When we started planning for this episode, I was saying things like, well, what do you mean we do an episode about this? You just write an objective that's miserable. And then we started talking about it and I learned that I don't know very much about, I didn't know very much about this and there's lots of good information to know.

So I, yes. And this was a learning process. [00:03:00] We're excited to share it. Yes. We're excited to share it. Yeah. Um, our learning objectives for today, um, there's three of them. The first is identify components of quality measurement and different types of data collection that are relevant to goal writing. We're gonna spend about 10 minutes going through some of that.

Second objective, identify necessary considerations prior to beginning to write goals. We're gonna spend about 20 minutes on that, and then the final learning objective label, and provide an example for each component of a smart goal. We're gonna spend about a half hour the, the bulk of the episode talking about that last objective.

Right? All right, buddy. 

Amy Wonkka: Yeah, well said. 

Kate Grandbois: We ready to go? Well done. 

Amy Wonkka: Yes. 

Kate Grandbois: So learning objective number one. Identify components of quality measurement and different types of data collection that are relevant to goal writing. For those of you who are regular listeners, um, the first pieces of this objective are going to be a slight review [00:04:00] from some of the topics and resources that were covered in our data collection episode.

So, as we were preparing, preparing for this and, you know, discussing it, we realized that in order to really think about the required components of objective writing, you really need to have a good foundational understanding of measurement and data collection. So, first things first. What is good data and what is bad data?

Right? Not all data is create created equal, and not all measurement is created equal 

Amy Wonkka: and without good data. Your goals and objectives. It doesn't matter how wonderfully they're crafted you. The good data is what's informing your, your 

Kate Grandbois: choices. Right, exactly. Um, and I think it's important also to think about the concepts of data and measurement.

So when we say measurement, we're talking about how you're going about collecting the data, whereas some people may hear the word data and just think, oh, that's the numbers that are, those are the tally marks that I scratch on the piece of paper. Mm-hmm. Um, so there is, there are good, there are good components, there's good [00:05:00] quality data and there's bad quality data.

Uh, back in our data collection episode, we had reviewed an article by Olswang and Bain, and it's a really great article. We're gonna have it up on our episode page. Um, we're not gonna go through that in too, too much detail. But overall good data has three components, and you can refer to that article for more information, um, if you wanna get into this.

But good data has three components. Data needs to be accurate. Data needs to be valid and data needs to be reliable. So let's go through that first piece of accuracy. Accurate data. Data that is accurate means that the observer values match the true values. That's a little com. It's a little vague. So let's use an example to really unpack it a little.

Take a scale. A scale is a way of measuring things, right? So if you have a scale, if you put potatoes on [00:06:00] the scale, this is the funny, we always laugh, why potatoes? You could put something else on the scale for that. We can make it, we can make it weird. Cactuses. Let's put cactuses on this cactus. You wanna stick with potatoes?

Okay, we can stick with with potatoes. Okay. So if you put potatoes on the scale, and the scale says that the potatoes weigh one and a half pounds, that measurement is accurate. If the potatoes actually weigh one and a half pounds. The value measured by the scale is the true value. So that is an example of how data is accurate when the value matches the true the OB observer value matches the true value.

Let's talk about validity. That's the one of the other components. Data should always be valid. Validity is how well something measures what it is supposed to measure. So same scenario. Same example. You put the potatoes on the scale because you wanna know how much the potatoes weigh, but this is a super weird scale, and instead of telling you [00:07:00] how much the potato weighs, the scale tells you the potatoes density.

That is not a valid measurement of weight. 

Amy Wonkka: And I think this is one of the components of good data that we sometimes have trouble with when we're writing goals and objectives. Like sometimes, and we'll talk more about this later, sometimes we defer to putting in things like percent accuracy, when really that's not actually measuring what we really want to measure.

Um, so this is a really important component I think. I mean, obviously accuracy is very important too. We wanna measure what we really wanna measure, but the validity is something to really step back and think about when you're writing your goals. 

Kate Grandbois: I think that absolutely. Um, last one, data should be reliable.

Reliable data is when the same values are determined over repeated measurements. So using the same analogy, you put the potatoes on the scale. The scale says one and a half pounds. You come back [00:08:00] tomorrow and the scale still says one and a half pounds. If it says all of a sudden that the, that the potatoes, the same bag of potatoes weighs two pounds, your scale is not a reliable measurement.

So, thinking about these components of quality data, you really wanna make sure that when you're thinking about goal and objective writing, you're doing what you can to keep reliability, validity, and accuracy at a really, at a high threshold. So when you're choosing your data collection sy, when you're choosing a data collection system, you wanna choose one that yields good data.

You also wanna make sure that you're choosing a data collection system that is realistic within your setting and something that you feel you have the resources to actually apply to get that measurement. Um, there's another really great article that we're not gonna go into in too much detail by Jane Corsten called Meaningful Data Making Sense of the Plus and Minus.

If you are interested in [00:09:00] reading more about this, we highly recommend this article. It's a really, really great article. Uh, we're gonna refer to it I think a couple more times throughout the course of this episode. This article helps you summarize things that you need to consider when designing your data collection system.

Um. For, and one of the biggest components of designing your data collection system is considering what is the, what are you trying to measure? What is the communicative behavior that you are really trying to capture as a point of, you know, we're not taking data for fun. Nobody takes data for fun. You're taking it to measure something really.

Well, Amy does, you're taking something really specific and, you know, you're, you're measuring something really specific for the point, you know, for the long-term goal of upholding that goal that you have written. Um, what are the minimum performance criteria that you need to consider? What are the obstacles that you need to consider in terms of success?

Of the success of that goal? Um, what [00:10:00] components, what specific components of, of the behavior or the communication x do you need to consider? 

Amy Wonkka: And I think that a lot of these points and questions that corsten raises in this article are things that we will see echoed in the articles that we'll reference later with respect to smart goals.

Part of what a Smart goal incorporates is answering all of these different questions and making sure that there's enough information there so that you truly are painting the picture of what you're measuring, how you're measuring it, and what is the criteria by which you'll, you'll know, okay, this, this goal has been achieved.

Right. Um, 

Kate Grandbois: right. Totally. So, I mean, and just sort of thinking about those foundational components to, you know, that you're using to uphold. The validity of that goal or what you're, what it is you're really trying to achieve. Um, there are a lot of different kinds of measurement types that you could consider and you really wanna make sure [00:11:00] that, you know, you're choosing one that is going to accurately.

Accurately capture the communication behavior that you're looking at. So there's quantitative measurement types, and there are qualitative measurement types. Um, again, the all swang and bang, all, all swang and bang, all swang and Bain, I always butcher the, always butcher the last. That's the theme here.

That's the theme. Um, and they give a really, really great de more in depth description in their article. We're gonna go through a few of them and explain and really focus on the quantitative components of data collection, because those tend to be the most closely tied to what you would see in a written objective or measurement for an objective or goal.

Um, so one of the ones that we see a lot is, um, frequency. So this method refers to the number of times that a target behavior was observed or counted. So you might say, Johnny said a target [00:12:00] word eight times. This goes into a percentage. Which is another form that we see a lot. So eight times out of 10 times, um, rate is another one.

Rate is very similar to frequency, but it's a number of, um, it's a number of time, a number of instances of a target word or a target behavior within a specific period of time. So, for example, Johnny said a target word eight times in 15 minutes. Um, duration is another one that is really, really appropriate for certain communicative behaviors, but one that we don't see very often written in, or at least I don't see very often written in goals and objectives, duration measures, the amount of time that someone engages in a behavior, uh, or a communication act.

An example would be Johnny jointly attended to a task for a peer with 40 for 45 seconds. Um, we're gonna talk about this a little bit more, but you wouldn't necessarily say with [00:13:00] 80% accuracy, the duration might be a much more appropriate way to capture a joint attention skill. And the final one we're gonna go over is latency.

Latency refers to the amount of time that passes between when you expect someone to engage in a task and when the response actually begins. So this could be related to initiating communication, responding, responding to verbally delivered questions, executing a task after a verbal direction had been given, et cetera.

So for example, Johnny begins putting his lunchbox away 25 seconds after his teacher gave him the direction. Johnny put away your lunchbox. And in that example, latency is a great way to measure that. Task, assuming that you are really interested in latency as opposed to just writing. Johnny will follow a direction with 80%, with 80% accuracy.

Um, so you can see there's, in really understanding the different types of measurement, they lend themselves to different kinds of [00:14:00] behavior of communicative behaviors, depending on what it is you're trying to measure. 

Amy Wonkka: I agree, and I think when we consider writing goals and objectives, you really do want to be a bit flexible with the different types of ways that you might collect that data.

In thinking not only about what's going to give you the most valid data and measure what you actually wanna measure, but also thinking about what's feasible in that environment. So that sort of brings us to our second learning objective. Uh, identifying the necessary considerations before you even start to write your goals.

The way that you write your goals, the focus of your goals, that's, that will vary quite a bit depending upon your, your employment setting. But there are some things that are universal. When we look at ashe's code of ethics, that makes it clear that we should all be using, you know, some metrics to guide our practice.

So in looking through the code of ethics, some of the components that are really relevant to goal to writing goals and objectives would be [00:15:00] principle one K. Uh, individuals who hold the certificate of clinical competence shall evaluate the effectiveness of services provided technology employed and products dispensed, and they shall provide services or dispense products only when benefit can be reasonably expected.

So I don't know how you can evaluate effectiveness if you haven't defined your goals and objectives. You 

Kate Grandbois: know, I gotta say, when you read the code of ethics, it's applying it to goals and objectives is not something that jumps, it doesn't jump out at you right away, but you're so right. I mean, if we're ethically bound to evaluate the effect effectiveness of our service, of our services, how could you possibly do that with a bad objective?

Not a bad objective, but a, an objective or goal that doesn't accurately measure or target what it is that you're interested in seeing? 

Amy Wonkka: Right? I mean, if you don't know what it is exactly that you're trying to achieve, how will you determine whether you've achieved it or not? Right? Exactly. When we look at Principle one M [00:16:00] that covers individuals who hold the certificate of clinical competence, she'll use independent and evidence-based clinical judgment keeping paramount the best interest of those being served.

So. Evidence-based practice is going to involve integrating your own clinical experience and evidence with the existing research. Again, you don't have clinical evidence if you're not collecting data to address your goals and objectives. Right? So that's an important part of making sure that we're using evidence-based clinical judgment.

And then I also think keeping paramount in the best interest of those being served. We, we are a fun, we're a fun bunch, a speech language pathologist, right? People hopefully enjoy spending, hopefully enjoy spending time with us, but ultimately if people are coming to us for, for a service, they're, they're coming so that they can achieve a certain goal.

Mm-hmm. Right. I, I hurt my knee. I was going to, I, my PT was lovely. They were both lovely. Um, but I [00:17:00] was not like, I would rather have gone home after work than have gone to PT and paid $20, right? So, so I'm going to achieve an outcome. That outcome was to be able to do things without my knee hurting. And it's, it's the same with people who are coming to see us for speech and language services.

We really want to be using approaches that are very effective for our clients, maximize their outcome. Um, and our goals and objectives should really be the scope and sequence for our services. It should help us make sure that we're having clear conversations with our clients about what we are all working on together.

Uh, it should help us have an ongoing conversation and sort of an anchor to come back to in terms of evaluating proc, their progress toward those goals, uh, and making sure that we are doing it in the most effective way possible. We don't want to, you know, we don't wanna take the. Any more time or money, uh, than we should be to help achieve those, those goals and objectives.

So that brings us kind of the final, um, area where I felt like it was really relevant to our [00:18:00] code of ethics, which is Principle one Q individuals shall maintain timely records, accurately record and bill for services provided and products dispensed and shall not misrepresent services provided, products dispensed, or research and scholarly activities conducted.

Kate Grandbois: This is really interesting because when you read this component of the ethical code, again, writing objectives does not, is not what jumps out at you, but it's absolutely true. I mean, when you read this, you think, oh, I have to write notes and I have to not bill for services I didn't perform. And you know, the obvious things.

Spreading your goals and objectives are part of an accurate record keeping. 

Amy Wonkka: Right? Right. And so, and your notes should connect with your goals and objectives. Yeah, totally. So all of these pieces, you know, this is universal for everybody. It doesn't matter what your work environment is, this applies to you.

Right. So in, in doing some research for, for this podcast, we found two particularly excellent [00:19:00] articles in addition to the two that Kate already talked to you guys about. Um, but these articles were about writing measurable goals. And the first is by Nancy Swaggart. Now it's my turn to hurt people's soft names.

No, no, you did that beautifully. You never butchered them like I do. I dunno. I become like Nancy, I dunno. Nancy, I hope we got it right. Sorry, Nancy. Um, but her article was published in 2014 in an issue of perspectives on swallowing and swallowing disorders. And then the second article is by Emily Dean Dime.

Yeah. I'm gonna go with Dean. I dh. Esteem. Yeah. Emily let us know. Yeah. And that article is titled Writing Measurable and Academically Relevant IEP Goals with 80% Accuracy over three consecutive trials. And this is from SIG 16 perspective. So a cool thing Kate mentioned in our disclosures that we're both members of SIG 12, if you were a member of any sig, you should be able to access all of the SIG journals, which is pretty awesome.

Um, and both of these articles are from sort of [00:20:00] different clinical environments, but both relevant and really helpful. Uh, so they're both covering goals, goal writing. They outline the importance of other components that are necessary when you're writing measurable and meaningful goals. And we're gonna start there with these things that you need to think about before you are even getting started with the goal writing process.

So the Swaggart article, this article is talking about the medical model circa 2014. Um, and there's, there's a quote here that practitioners must be aware of. The focus on value from Medicare's value-based purchasing to the consumer's idea of value. And value is defined as outcomes divided by the total cost.

So I haven't been in healthcare for a while as a provider, but as a consumer of healthcare, like that idea resonates with me, right? Like I would like really good outcomes at the, at the lowest [00:21:00] possible cost. So, back to, you know, my, my PT example, I'm gonna like just keep recycling this, but, you know, if I can get, if I can get function and pain reduction in my knee and spend $120 and go for, you know, eight sessions.

I'm gonna prefer that to spending twice as much and going twice as often. Right. So this concept of value added, while it's coming from Medicare, it's coming from, you know, third party payers. I think it's probably also relevant across all settings. Definitely. Right? We, we want that same thing, I think as 

Kate Grandbois: professionals as a whole, we don't wanna see our services as being poorly valued or, you know, people aren't getting anything out of it, or, I mean, for a whole host of reasons.

Amy Wonkka: Well, and when you connect it back to the code of ethics, again, like principles one K, principles one m like we should be providing services only when there's reasonable expectation of benefit. And we should be holding our client's best interest paramount. And I don't think there are many people, if any, people who are like, no, [00:22:00] no, sign me up for the expensive, less effective one.

Right, exactly. I'm gonna increase 

Kate Grandbois: my, my rate by 10%, but then give you half the service. 

Amy Wonkka: Right. I mean, that's, that's just no. No, that's, it's frowned upon. It's just silliness. Right. Don't do that. So, so connected with this in that same swaggart article is the idea of patient reported outcomes or pros. So meaning that the funding sources, um, which she was saying in the articles that the funding sources aren't really just concerned with whether or not the patient met their goals, but also like how, how happy were they about it?

What did the patient think about it? Um, she gives some examples about different PRO tools that, that could be of interest if you're a listener who works in dysphagia in a medical setting. Um, and these are kind of like, for me, when I was reading it, it felt kind of like the, like the consumer satisfaction surveys that you get sometimes when you mm-hmm.

Like, call your credit card company or something and they're like, how, how did this guy do in helping you out? Um, so, so the concept is [00:23:00] relevant to writing goals and objectives. Because the patient or the client, the student, their family, whoever you're writing your goals to support, they should be a central part of the goal selection and planning process.

So I'm gonna quote her 'cause I thought that this was awesome and really relevant across settings. Um, and so what she says in the article is that clinicians often discuss the treatment goals with the patient and the caregivers, but may not always get a commitment from the patient and caregivers on what they're willing to work towards.

Too often the SLP is setting goals they expect the patient to achieve in therapy sessions with them. With the changing healthcare environment, SLPs should develop treatment plans with a focus on the patient, working on the goals outside of the therapy session as much as possible, placing more responsibility on the patient for achieving goals is also called uh, patient self-management.

A practice not ingrained in the field. Speech, language pathology. 

Kate Grandbois: I. That is such a great point. And I think that depending on where you work, depending on [00:24:00] your work setting, this may or may not be salient. It may or may not be highlighted. So for example, in my years previously working in a hospital outpatient setting, if you didn't send home homework, if you didn't send home, you know, home related, you know, tasks and they didn't bring it back to you and prove that they were working on things at home, you got discharged that was just cold Turkey.

Yep. Fast forward many years later to working, you know, having exposure to school systems, that is not really something, at least in my experience, that was really a focus of the school SLPs job because the funding source didn't require it, the administration didn't necessarily require it. And I think the key piece there is.

Not so much whether or not your administration requires it. But if you have buy-in, if you have genuine interest, if you have written a goal or objective that has, that is perceived as having value by the family, by the parents, by the stakeholder, by the [00:25:00] student, by the individual themselves, you have such a higher likelihood that they will work on it outside of your treatment room, that they will work on it at home.

They will take those opportunities when they're on the playground or you know, wherever they are in their community, which means they are going to make better gains. They're going to have, you know, they're going to achieve more skills. And I think. Rooting that in the fact that rooting that in writing a good objective is the most genius mind explosion thing that I've ever heard.

Amy Wonkka: Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome. I was like, this is so good. But I, but I think, you know, it, it raises such, such a great point, which is that you need to be aware of the requirements and also the culture of your setting. So when we think about, you know, outpatient or inpatient models, there are different kind of primary overarching goals of the organization with respect to your therapy.

And the funding agencies also have different [00:26:00] expectations with respect to your therapy. So, and, and I think it's true for the idea that having outside involvement is important for anybody to make progress on their speech and language goals, I think is true and relevant regardless of your setting. But if you're in a school-based setting and not a medical environment, um, you know, it may.

Be different because your mandate is different. Also, when you're in a school environment, what you really are working on is providing access to the academic curriculum. Mm-hmm. Right? So if you are in a school-based setting, the more familiar you are with the curriculum standards, the common core, your state specific standards, like this is really your job.

Your job is less perhaps about, um, communicating something specific in the home environment, not that homework isn't relevant. Um, but in school, the homework in part, becomes utilizing [00:27:00] that skill across academics. So your, your primary support is the family, but also even more so the other school providers, making sure that, you know, you're unpacking the.

Speech and language skills required for accessing grade level academic standards. When we look on Ash's website, uh, there's a great handout that we will have up on our website, but they, they look at, you know, the drivers for school-based speech and language services, and they're different. They are connected to educational relevance, and they say the litmus test for rules assumed by SLPs in school settings is whether or not their work has an impact on the education of students.

Therefore, SLPs address personal, social, academic, and vocational needs that have an impact on attainment of educational goals. And in order for a problem to rise to the level of a disability addressed under federal law, the problem has to have an adverse educational effect. So therefore, educational relevance needs to be a factor in provision of speech [00:28:00] and language services.

In a school. 

Kate Grandbois: School. And I think that's, I mean, it's, we all know how important it's to generalize, right? We all know that we're supposed to be looping in the classroom teacher. I mean, just thinking about the school setting, but sort of looping this back to when you're writing your goals and objectives, what does the teacher think is valuable?

What are they, you know, what are the other, the kid, the, the, oh, with the other individuals on the team, the other clinicians, the other stakeholders within the school. What are, what do they seem at see as valuable in terms of getting access to that curriculum? And those are conversations that I, I'm not, I guess it depends on where you are, but they're really important questions to ask and they might not always be obvious.

Amy Wonkka: And if you correct and if you are a school-based provider, you know, the first thing you need to figure out is, are you a state or a school system where you follow the common core curriculum? Think about where your student is. For their age level, for their grade level, are they able to access grade [00:29:00] level standards?

And don't limit yourself only to things that seem speech and languagey. So ELA, English Language Arts, uh, seems like something that's a natural best friend for speech and language, right? We can see a lot of need for support there when we look at the curriculum, but there could also be a need that your student has.

If you have a student who has a language-based learning disability, um, they may struggle with word problems in math. So look at all of the different components of the curriculum for their grade level. If they aren't able to access the grade level content with supports, then look back to earlier entry point skills.

And the more you do this, the better you'll get at being able to hold these curriculum expectations in your head and consider them when you're assessing students. Uh, definitely check out page 37. Of Dean's article where she gives really good tips for unpacking the related speech and language skills that are [00:30:00] required for accessing grade level academic standards.

It's a very helpful way to help detangle all of the little pieces that go into something like being able to identify the main idea. Um, so with that said, when you've considered, you know, what are the priorities for your particular work environment? You know, are they tied to patient outcomes? Are they tied to, uh, you know, the need to connect with academics?

Something else that every person should be doing before their writing goals and objectives is doing some form of assessment, right? Assessments should be driving all of your goal setting. Doesn't have to mean formal assessments for people who are in the schools. You're probably only conducting a standardized eligibility assessment every three years or so.

Uh, but it does mean you need to analyze your client's current performance and their repertoire of skills. And you can't, you can't be generating effective goals and objectives, even if you know your environment and the expectations for your environment very well. [00:31:00] Without some form of assessment, you don't understand where your client's needs fit in relationship to those priorities.

So 

Kate Grandbois: thinking about that as part of the school setting, if you're, you know, you're only doing your official three year evaluation every three years, but every IEP, every time you go to rewrite your objectives, you're doing some form of informal analysis and assessment based on their current level of performance and then projecting, and you're, you know, responsible for writing objectives that are achievable, you know, reasonable within the environment, et cetera, et cetera.

You're, you, you have to go through that analytic assessment process. At least once a year in the school setting and in an outpatient setting, every time your insurance is up, you know? Right. I think most places, and you know, we would do it in the hospital every six weeks, sometimes every 10 weeks. If you're, you know, you got four visits and you had to submit a reevaluation based on current status, sometimes that was every four weeks.

The reassessment reevaluation process is much more [00:32:00] frequent and depending on your funding source, if you're in a hospital setting, um, or an outpatient setting, or even a private practice setting, really. But I guess I'm just highlighting that no matter where you are, you are always, you are always revisiting your goals and objectives with some form of analysis and assessment.

Amy Wonkka: Yes. And when you're doing something that does incorporate a standardized assessment, you know, raw scores, error analyses, they help you form clinical impressions that drive your choices, uh, around your goals and objectives. But you don't wanna write a goal to target a specific test item or a series of test items that's for practice.

Um, you know, school-based SLPs should be working with other people on the team and using a variety of informal assessment measures. And that's true also for, regardless of your setting, use informal assessment measures as well, uh, to supplement the information that you're obtaining through a norm referenced assessment.

So you wanna just make sure that you're getting a lot of [00:33:00] different information, um, about the individual and then using that. So, okay, you've assessed your client, you've incorporated your input from other stakeholders. You've thought about the particular outcome drivers unique to your work environment, you know, which might be something like.

Moving a patient to a less supportive level of care and greater level of independence or you know, it could be educational relevance and attainment of educational goals. Like you've given those thoughts, you've conducted your assessment. You're ready now to write some goals. So exciting. Kick off. Is that kick off to objective number three?

Sure is, buddy. Sure is. 

Kate Grandbois: So objective number three, label and provide an example for each component of a smart goal. I have a confession. Yeah. What is that? I've been a practicing speech pathologist for a long time. I'm pretty good at my job. I think I haven't been in trouble or had too many people mad at me.

I didn't know what a smart goal was. I've never heard that term. [00:34:00] Amy. What? So what is a, it's so funny. 

Amy Wonkka: Smart. A smart goal. So smart is of course, it's an acronym 'cause we love acronyms in our field. Um, smart. The smart goal approach is something that is talked about in both the swagger and the theme article.

So you might be familiar with smart goals if you work in schools. Like I know about SMART goals because I, I'm in a public school and as part of our teacher evaluation process, we have to generate smart goals for ourselves and for our students. It's like part of our evaluation process. Um. If you can't, if I would definitely recommend if you either aren't familiar with Smart goals or you would just like to learn more about them.

The swagger and the DM articles are really good and super helpful if you can't access those because maybe you're not in a sig. Uh, we do have some additional resources on smart goals up on the website, so you can find a link to a helpful handout from the Massachusetts Teachers [00:35:00] Association Center for Education Policy and Practice.

This is not about writing smart goals for clinicians. It really is about, it's tied to that teacher supervision and evaluation process, but what's nice about the handout. Is, it does have a lot of different examples about how to apply that same framework to writing professional practice and student learning goals.

Again, these are not the same thing as clinical goals, but if you're having trouble wrapping your head around like all of the components that need to go into a smart goal, this can has a lot of different examples. And while they're not clinical examples, it can help you kind of get a good feel for the structure of what smart goals look like.

Uh, we also have a link to an article by Irene Gilbert Torres from the September, 2013 ASHA Leader Live titled Tricks to Take the Pain Out of Writing Treatment Goals. And that is not quite as in depth as the two um s articles, but it's a really nice overview as well. Okay, so we're gonna synthesize information from [00:36:00] those four sources.

We're gonna talk a little bit more about smart goals. 

Kate Grandbois: I'm sitting here trying to guess what the acronym is for I, I I, I am. What? What do you 

Amy Wonkka: guess? 

Kate Grandbois: Well, I have the notes in front of me, so I feel like that's cheating. 

Amy Wonkka: But it's an open book. 

Kate Grandbois: It's an open book quiz and I might fail. No. Um, I don't think I would've guessed this.

So the S stands for specific. Hmm. 

Amy Wonkka: And that is good. And we'll talk more about that in a minute. Okay. Okay. We'll, we'll tell you all of them right now, then we'll dig, then we'll dig into each one. Okay. So S specific, you want 'em to be specific. M measurable A, depending on who, who you read. A could be actionable, A could be attainable.

A could be achievable. Interesting. So there's a lot encompassed in the A. Um, similarly for r, R could mean relevant or realistic. And then T [00:37:00] is time. So we're gonna break down all of those components. Yeah, don't worry. We'll, it's gonna be good. 

Kate Grandbois: I hope all of our listeners are feeling a boost of confidence that the host is unfamiliar with her own content.

To all of you out there, hopefully you feel good about yourselves. You should. It's gonna be fun making, making a fool of myself for all of you. 

Amy Wonkka: So specific, I mean, we, we know what this word means, right? Specific. That's a word that we've used in life. But I get this one. 

Kate Grandbois: This one makes sense 

Amy Wonkka: to 

Kate Grandbois: me. 

Amy Wonkka: It does.

Right? So Swaggert, we're gonna start with her. She links questions to each goal area, which I like a lot. Kate knows I love questions. I like we love to 

Kate Grandbois: think in questions. 

Amy Wonkka: I love to stick in very 

Kate Grandbois: analytic. This is why you are so good at your job. 

Amy Wonkka: I, I just like questions. It's not the way I think. So this is maybe also has swaggert links.

Thanks. So totally. Yay questions. She's also a super 

Kate Grandbois: nerd, I'm sure. 

Amy Wonkka: Perhaps. Yes. So she says we have to know, to be specific, we have to know who is involved, what is getting [00:38:00] accomplished. Where this is happening, when with which requirements and constraints and why? So like what is the reason that we're doing this goal?

Kate Grandbois: That's the most important one to me. I have things to say about that, but I'll keep them in my thinking bubble. Nope. Say say them out loud. Literally. Literally 

Amy Wonkka: on a podcast. Didn't wanna, wanna steal. 

Kate Grandbois: I didn't wanna steal your thunder. Okay. No, nothing makes me grou here than seeing an objective that has no purpose and it happens all the time.

So I will read an objective. And for those of you listening, one of my biggest jobs is consulting and helping other speech pathologists, mentoring other speech pathologists and other special educators, behavior analysts, et cetera. So I read a lot of other people's objectives all the time. And one of my biggest, one of the biggest things I, first thing I say is, okay, that this is a great goal.

So why? Why are you working on this? What [00:39:00] is, what is this related to that is functional and important to the student or the client? And it's amazing how many times people, well, mom really wanted it in the, oh, well, you know, he had a hard time this one day. Or, you know, there isn't a lot of thought behind the why.

And the why is the most, to me, the most component of the s or specific. 

Amy Wonkka: Well, and to connect it back sort of to the points that Swaggart was making in terms of the medical environment. Like that's, that's directly connected to your patient or client outcomes too, right? Yes. If it's not something that's important and meaningful for the individual.

Then what's, then what's the point? 

Kate Grandbois: Well, what's the point? I, I really think a lot of times, uh, in my experience, people choose objectives because it's, it's what comes next. You know, they look at the developmental trajectory and it's like, oh, well this seems like it would come next. So that's what I'm gonna pick.

Which makes sense. I mean, I can see that logic, but if you're [00:40:00] not considering the underpinnings of why, yes, it comes next, but is there a way that you could tweak it to be impactful or related to something that is important to the student or family or client or other functional tasks in their environment?

Um, with, if you don't consider that, then you're just arbitrarily, you know, scooting them along some trajectory, which is not our jobs. 

Amy Wonkka: No. And I think another piece that connects with that is sometimes people write goals to fit different activities. Yes, yes. Which is, which is in part what you're doing if you're in a school-based setting and you're connecting to curriculum, but you shouldn't be writing it for an activity that you've done or you have materials for, you should be writing it to connect back with that curriculum.

So, you know, in, in her article, Swaggart gives an example because it's obviously, it's for, it's for dysphasia, that's the focus of the article. So, you know, she gives [00:41:00] examples of, you know, a general goal versus a specific goal. So distill the to, to look at an objective that you or I might support a team in writing, you know, rather than saying the students' repair skills.

Ability to repair a communication breakdown will, will improve. Right. So that's, that's a broad idea. 

Announcer: Mm-hmm. 

Amy Wonkka: Um, but it doesn't, it doesn't answer those swaggart questions. It doesn't tell us who's involved. It doesn't. It tells us a little bit about what we wanna accomplish. Um, but it's, it's pretty general.

So like how do you know when you've hit that, when you've hit that benchmark, right? 

Announcer: Mm-hmm. 

Amy Wonkka: Doesn't tell us where it's happening. Doesn't tell us when it's happening. Um, I guess if it's an IEP, you sort of have a timeframe. 'cause you know, it's within that year timeframe. It doesn't tell us the requirements and constraints and it doesn't tell us why we're doing it.

Mm-hmm. Right. So, so some ways that we could flesh that idea of repair, repairing, communication, breakdowns, will improve. How [00:42:00] could we answer that? You know, how could we answer some of her questions? I mean, who, who's involved maybe when speaking with a less familiar listener in the main office? The student will increase their ability to repair a communication breakdown when the listener tells them, I don't understand.

Can you say it again? In order to become more independent with communicating, you know, in communicating with people who are less familiar listeners, um, that's, you know, that's just an example of the level of detail that you kind of need to put in there to answer those different questions. And that also comes into, like, when you write that objective, you're like, oh golly, that feels awfully long.

Right? Like, oh, bye. Sorry. Gosh, bye Holly. That's why Madam Objective feels too long, you know, like,[00:43:00] 

yes, it feels too long, but like, get comfortable with it, right? Because ultimately you, you want a long objective because it's, it needs to be long in order to answer all those questions. So back to specificity. The S of the smart goal deem includes some other important considerations in hers. Again, she's the person who's writing the article specific to the school environment.

She says, you know, be specific but jargon free. And I think this is a really helpful point. I. When we talk about, you know, writing goals and objectives that are functional in a school environment, you really want everybody on the team to understand your goals so that hopefully you're all working collaboratively Yes.

To make them happen. Um, if you are using super speechy terms, the general educator is probably not really gonna understand what you're saying and may or may not have the time to reach out to you to clarify. Right. So if you can make it as user friendly as possible, most parents and guardians aren't speech [00:44:00] pathologists make it jar, like de jargon it mm-hmm.

So that it's friendly to people who aren't speech pathologists. Um, she also talks about prompts. So I see this a lot. I don't know if you see this a lot, Kate, but mm-hmm. Sometimes we'll write goals and objectives that use generic statements like moderate verbal prompting. 

Kate Grandbois: Well, that, what does that mean 

Amy Wonkka: exactly?

What does that mean? 

Kate Grandbois: I, I don't know what that means. So in the, I mean, that could be a million different things depending on who's doing the prompting, what their history is with the student or client, you know, what the student's needs are, what are their sensory needs, what are their frustration tolerances?

Moderate prompting could mean a thousand different things. Different things. Yeah. 

Amy Wonkka: Yeah. So, d deems solution to that is if you're talking about prompts, which she says you should, if you're, if you're including that as a condition of your goal, make sure you use specific examples. So our, our objective that we just said earlier, which I've already forgotten, [00:45:00] um, about repairs, you know, we, we would be more specific.

So if we were saying, you know, the student's gonna repair in the office when the person says, I don't understand. Can you say it again? Uh, and we wanted to say, with moderate verbal prompting, we are gonna include in parentheses and example such as. You need to tell Mrs. Baxter what you want for lunch, right?

Maybe that's maximal, I don't really know, but give some examples about, but it's a 

Kate Grandbois: spectrum. I think that's the point. I mean, mm-hmm. You know, that could be for a kid who can't tolerate you giving prompts at all, one sentence of a verbal prompt could be a maximum. That's a maximum amount of prompting that that kid can handle.

I mean, it could mean so many different things. 

Amy Wonkka: So if you're using phrases like, I think a big takeaway for me is if you're using phrases like minimal, maximal, moderate cues, prompts, just do a little example in there so that people reading it have a picture in their mind about what that looks like for [00:46:00] you and what you're thinking about is the person writing the goal.

Kate Grandbois: Uh, one of the things that I've done in the past, which maybe I always get nervous when I tell examples because I'm afraid that you're gonna be like, no, that's a terrible idea. But, but I have imposter syndrome in my own podcast. How pathetic is that? Um, but I, you know, I've tried to put qu quantifiers around it.

So use an example, but maybe say no more than one. No more than one verbal cue that contains one sentence or something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, basically any sentence, but like, you know. This is exactly if the, or sometimes I'll do it with gesture no more than one specific gesture cue. And then, and, you know, have that example.

Amy Wonkka: I think that that would be meeting what deem is making with suggest, suggesting that we do, right? So just spelling it out so that the person reading the objective has a better idea of what you're talking about. [00:47:00] Um, a couple of other points that she puts in here. You know, make sure that your target behavior is actionable and observable.

So again, you, it's really hard or impossible to know if somebody has learned or understood something. Um, so you may use some actual examples again. Uh, don't smush too many things into one goal. MI think this happens a lot too. Oh yes, you're smooshing, right? So you might want, you know. She gives a great example in the article just about, you know, answering questions after reading a, a passage and like all these different skills that actually go into that.

Um, in general, you don't wanna smush too many skills in there because what happens is you are not getting good data back to the data. You're not getting good data when you're trying to collect data on a million different things. And how are you gonna know, like parts of the goal will be achieved, the whole goal won't be achieved.

So, right. And then where do you 

Kate Grandbois: know where the communication breakdown, not communication breakdown. Where, where do you know where the breakdown is? [00:48:00] So if they only achieve part of the objective, but you only have data on the whole objective, then where do you know where the learning, where you need to pro, you know, where you need to put supports.

Amy Wonkka: Yep. So specificity is important. You can make sure that you're being specific if you answer questions like who is involved, what's accomplished, where is it happening, when with which requirements and constraints and why? Um, get rid of the jargon. If you're talking about prompting, give specific examples.

Um, that's your, that's your s How about the m 

Kate Grandbois: Measurable. Oh, I was gonna, I was gonna guess I was gonna make do another guess. 

Amy Wonkka: You were gonna guess what the M was. That's okay. Nevermind. Moving on. Time stamp. So, for measurable swaggart also gives us more questions. Love this article. Um, when we are constructing a measurable goal and objective, we're answering questions like, how much, how [00:49:00] many, and how will I know when it's been accomplished?

Deem says, measurable goals have four key components. They involve an observable behavior, the level of support or prompting needed criteria, and the conditions under which the skill will occur. So we need to be specific. I. About all of these different things. 

Kate Grandbois: I think one of the things I see missing a lot is the conditions under which the skill will occur, like most of us learning graduate school, that it has to be observable, it has to be measurable.

You know, you put a number, it has, you have to be able to measure it somehow. But saying the conditions under which the skill will occur is a massive component to measuring success or failure. So if you've taught one specific skill, but they do it in the wrong context, then what kind of skill are you, what kind of skill have you just given that student or client?

Amy Wonkka: Well, and I think, you know, Dean makes some really good points in her article where this is, [00:50:00] this is a unique consideration, I think, for the school environment, or it's just maybe more impactful in the school environment because school encompasses so many environments, little sub environments. Um, and the actual goal, connecting it back to our institutional, you know, drivers, the actual goal is for the student to access their academics.

Right. So she, she makes the point that if, if somebody's able to do something in a, in an isolated one-on-one quiet environment, in a therapy room with a skilled communication partner who's, you know, able to scaffold and fade and, and bring back in prompting and different supports, that doesn't necessarily mean anything about their ability to do that same skill in a busy classroom.

Right? So one of her suggestions was, you know, consider adding an additional aspect to the goal, like a generalization criteria, so that way you're looking at that skill being applied in different types of environments with different types of. People. Um, and I think that this sometimes leads to some confusion [00:51:00] between outpatient and school-based providers having been in both of those roles.

Kate Grandbois: I was just about to say that. I mean, when you mentioned this about, you know, I just think about my sterile white room that I used to treat in. Yeah. Unless, okay, great. You had the best session in the world. What does that mean? That means you had the best session in the world in a sterile white room. Does that, does that mean anything to, you know, his or her ability to use that skill in the parking lot?

In the waiting room, in the c in the busy classroom, in the home environment? And I think that's particularly true for our more complex learners, um, or learners who have, you know, a more emergent profile or have particular difficulty with generalization. Um. Considering those factors, or I guess you could, looking at it in the opposite, not considering those factors is a really a failure and, and a waste.

Amy Wonkka: Well, and I think even for students who are accessing more of their [00:52:00] instruction in general education, they may have kind of a past experience as a learner. We talked about this a little bit, I think in our behavior talk that we did, um, with that inclusive inclusive strategies book. But, you know, you may have a student who can answer the question but has had such an experience of being incorrect in that general education environment that they have maybe anxiety around doing that.

Mm-hmm. So, so there can be variables around Good point. 

Kate Grandbois: Yep. 

Amy Wonkka: Learning the content, but there can also be other variables that make generalization challenging. Or maybe, you know, in your speech and language therapy session, you are using certain scaffolds or visual supports that maybe aren't happening in general education.

So that generalization piece I think is really important. 

Announcer: Mm-hmm. 

Amy Wonkka: Um, when we are thinking about the components connected to measurability, I think that having all of that in mind and connecting it back to the specificity and the purpose for [00:53:00] the goal is also very important. Um, and you want to enlist as many supporters as you can.

So if you're in a medical model, that means making sure you know that you are doing those collaborative goal setting conversations and getting commitment from, you know, parents and caregivers. If you're in the school environment, you wanna make sure you're collaborating with your other team members and just making sure that you're capturing all those pieces.

Okay. So specific, measurable. Now we're getting into the ones that have like lots of, lots of things. Attainable of all of also actually all attainable. 

Kate Grandbois: Yeah. Of all the three A's that you said, I think attainable or achievable are my favorite. Yeah. Because I, because this one it really, I'm gonna say it, it Chas my ass.

Amy Wonkka: Attainable. 

Kate Grandbois: Yeah. When, when No. Tell, tell me more. No, when I see an objective that is written that is not achievable. 

Amy Wonkka: Oh [00:54:00] yeah. Yeah. Well 

Kate Grandbois: I think it drives me crazy. That's all I'll say. So 

Amy Wonkka: this is, this is where the collaboration piece can be hard, right? Because when you're writing collaborative objectives with other people, you do as the speech language pathologist on the team, you have different knowledge and skills around this.

But you are one of many voices at the table. So I think sometimes those. Unachievable goals come out of a conversation of which the SLP is one part of a broader whole. Um, but I agree. I think if your goal isn't achievable, then the other parts don't really matter. Right. And when we think about our code of ethics, we're really supposed to be providing services only where a benefit can be reasonably expected.

Mm-hmm. So if it's not reasonable, you need to go back to the drawing board. And sometimes that's hard, depending on your funding source. Right. You may have a learner who takes an extended period of time to acquire a skill. The skill is [00:55:00] appropriate, it's meaningful, it's functional. You have been specific about all of different components related to it, but the reality is you're on a 60 day recertification schedule and the person is not able to achieve that goal within 60 days.

Does that mean it's not a, a reasonable goal for them? No, but I think as the clinician. It means you have to be really thoughtful about different ways that you can write your objective so that you are moving toward and achieving kind of sub-objectives within your specified timeframe. So I think that's where the prompting can come into play.

That might be where you talk about, you know what my. The individual who's coming for outpatient is working on the skill. It's really important. We are all on board. These are the steps to get there, but we are researching every 60 days. So maybe you think a lot about being very specific about the prompting that you describe mm-hmm.

And the scaffolds and supports in your environment, while also maintain 

Kate Grandbois: some semblance of a plan to fade those [00:56:00] prompts. Because I exactly the same. I see the same problem with persistent writing of goals and objectives that have so much prompting in them because they want. The student to have the skill, or they want the client to have the skill because they want it.

But the, the plan for fading those prompts for independence is maybe not, is maybe the piece of it that's unreasonable or not, not reasonably achievable. Um, and I think it's, it's, I mean, it's such an individual decision, but it's very, very important. I, I, it's, it's really just an, to me it's a, it's an ethical, it's an ethical issue for sure.

I 

Amy Wonkka: think it, I think it is an ethical issue. 

Kate Grandbois: I think you just confirmed to us an ethical issue. 'cause we read our go of ethic. Thank this's. Fine. 

Amy Wonkka: But I, but I agree. I I'm winning today. You're totally winning. I'm winning. It's fine. This, this is where you step back and also look up the assessment piece, right?

So you are making, you are making your, uh, you're setting your goals based on the [00:57:00] information that you have around your assessment. And around best practice. So if you feel like you set, you have a goal, you wrote the goal, you get to the end of your recertification period, your client hasn't met the goal, that's also could be a clue to you to go back to the research and see if you could be working on it in a different way.

I agree with you, if you're using a lot of different prompts and environmental supports, thinking about what your plan is for fading those or increasing the person's independence, if it's gonna be a long-term accommodation, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Some systematic supports could just be accommodations that are something the person is going to need long-term, but helping to make them more independent around those.

So yes, we want it to be actionable. We want it to be achievable, uh, and attainable depending on your work environment. Something else just to know about would be the Asha Noms and the FCM measures. Mm-hmm. So that might be helpful for you. This was mentioned in the swagger model. These are connected mostly to healthcare settings, also to ei.

Um, and these are scoring and coding. [00:58:00] Methods and a database that if you're a member of the database, you can get access to that. Um, could be a time to share some information with others. Loop back and think about your patient reported outcomes include involving the clients and their families in the planning and the commitment to follow through and practice outside the session.

That's also going to affect your achievability. Mm-hmm. If you as the clinician have a conversation where people say, yes, we'll do our homework every week, and then the only time the person is actually working on the skill is like 30 minutes, you know, twice a week with you. That potentially attainable goal is no longer attainable because people aren't doing their practice.

Mm-hmm. Just last time to kill my pt, uh, analogy, like if I didn't do my exercises at home. Going and doing it, you know, for, for one session a week is not gonna fix my knee, right? So I had to make the commitment to do that 

Kate Grandbois: and just to hammer it home. Again, this all comes down to your data. If your data does not reflect that the student or client, or per individual whatever is making [00:59:00] progress, then you are ethically required to reevaluate your, your treatment and your objectives.

Amy Wonkka: A thousand percent. Yes. And you don't have to wait. That's right. A thousand percent you, and you don't have to wait. If you are in, you know, if you're on an annual cycle, you don't have to wait until the end when you reconvene the IEP team to amend your goals. You can amend your goals at any time, right? Um, you just need to have a conversation as a group, talk about what's going on.

If something isn't working and you think it needs to be revised, you should be asking yourself those questions all of the time. So you've got specificity, you're saying you know what you're doing. It's really specific. It's measurable, it's attainable. The R, it's relevant. It's relevant. 

Kate Grandbois: Relevant. Relevant or realistic?

Realistic. I like that one more than relevant, but I guess I like them both. 

Amy Wonkka: I mean, I think that they, they're both words are worth thinking about as you're crafting your goals. Right? So when we think about Swagger's article, you know, she says a realistic goal is not only [01:00:00] attainable, but it's something that the patient agrees they're willing to work toward.

Kate Grandbois: Mm-hmm. 

Amy Wonkka: Right? Um, 

Kate Grandbois: or something that is realistic within their, you know, their functional everyday life or realistic to achieve within your setting with the resources that you have. I mean, I think that can touch on a lot of different components. 

Amy Wonkka: Well, and I think, you know, she makes the point that clients and caregivers will be more committed to work on the goal if it's something that's important to them.

Um, you know, I think about this as somebody who works in a, a c and in school-based settings involving that greater team, making sure you're involving the student, you know, making sure the student, there's a reason we have students involved in their transition planning, talking about what their goals and objectives are.

Mm-hmm. With the student. These are your goals and objectives. This is why we're working on these things. What do you think about this? What is your input, um, from Dean? You know, she, she says for schools, this is, this is potentially one of the easiest areas of a smart goal because as long as you're connecting it with the curriculum, then it's [01:01:00] always going to be relevant because schools are driven by access to the curriculum, which I think was a very good point as well.

Um, and then I guess we're onto the last one, which is timely. I don't get this one. So you need a timeframe. So this is sort of just thinking about what are your parameters for achieving this goal? And I feel like these are mostly set institutionally, right? So we've talked a lot about when you're in healthcare, you're recertifying.

That makes sense. That's a different timeline depending on your funding source, right? But yet each funding source has a timeline. Now I see school, right? Like you're connected to this. Get it. Not just like, we're gonna do this someday, right? Someday, 

Kate Grandbois: yes. 

Amy Wonkka: Um, I think one other piece that connects with this is, you know, the difference between long-term and short term goals.

The Swaggert article has a really nice table where she breaks down short term versus long term. And then she has this further distinction between short term and treatment objectives. With short-term goals, being like what you're working on and [01:02:00] why, and treatment objectives being how across all the places where I've worked, I've, I've never done that.

I've always had it integrated. Yeah, so, and she has both, she has the example of like those two things separated out and also integrated together to be the short term objective. Um, so you can get a feel for both of them. But I thought that that was a really nice piece about that example. 

Kate Grandbois: I know 

Amy Wonkka: how to write a smart 

Kate Grandbois: goal, 

Amy Wonkka: right?

You know how to write a smart goal. So when we are writing a smart goal, it's gonna be specific, including able to answer questions like who is involved, what is getting accomplished, where is it happening, when with which requirements and constraints and why. If you're gonna talk about prompting, you're gonna be specific de jargon it, you're gonna give examples, it's gonna be measurable, and you're gonna think hard about data and different ways to collect data.

Kate Grandbois: I see you have a note here about gold banks. [01:03:00] What is that? 

Amy Wonkka: So gold banks are something that some schools have. I don't have access to one, so I don't know what it is. Um, but essentially it's like a, a place where you can go in and look for goals. Right? What's a good goal for the, like I remember when I first started out, I worked in an outpatient clinic and we had like electronic records, right?

And you could like look. Did we even have electronic records? I, I actually don't remember. Perhaps I was looking just in files back in the old days. But I remember back in the old days, I remember like reading, reading through my CF supervisor, like all of these different like goals and objections to try and like get better at goals, right?

Like I wanted to get better at goals. So gold banks are basically that where you just, there's a ton of goals and you can pick a goal. Interesting. And like plug it in for your student. Is that a good idea? No, but potentially a little bit, right? I think it's a good idea [01:04:00] in the sense of if you are somebody who's especially newer to the field or newer to an area of the field, I think it can be a very helpful learning experience to look and see what types of goals other people have written for people with a similar profile.

I don't see how that is really different from reading any other information to help you be a better clinician. It can be very helpful to be like, oh, I never thought about wording it that way. I remember in just like doing file reviews. When I was like, brand new, just trying to be like, oh, that's, I never thought about writing it like that.

I never thought about doing a frequency count. Never thought about that. Right, right. So in, in seeing all of those things, I think it can be a really helpful educational experience for you as the clinician. I think the problem arises when, when that's where you're getting your goals, right? So if, if you're going to a gold bank to get ideas and to learn, I, I don't, I personally don't see the problem with that.

I, I 

Kate Grandbois: don't see how that's bad. And maybe this is a great opportunity to discuss it with other stakeholders or a [01:05:00] mentor if you have one. Is this a good objective that I just pulled from the bank? I wanna use it for X, Y and Z. Can you customize it? All those kinds of things. 

Amy Wonkka: Right? I, I think gold banks are a learning place, is, this is just like my perception, but that makes sense that they would be a learning place.

It's not where you should be writing your goals. Especially, you know, I mean, if you're working in a school, you're literally writing goals for an individualized education plan. Individualized is legit the first word. In IEP, 

Kate Grandbois: first word. There you go. Right. It's right there in front of, it's been right there under your nose the whole time.

Amy Wonkka: Correct. So, you know, you really want to make sure that you are following the smart guidelines and if you're following the smart guidelines, it's connected to something that's meaningful for the person in all of these other things. And it's unlikely that some generic bank checks all those boxes for your person.

Right. The generic bank didn't do an assessment. The generic bank didn't talk to the team, like the generic bank didn't do any of these things. Right. But the generic bank could help help, like stimulate ideas for you as a clinician. Right, 

Kate Grandbois: right. [01:06:00] 

Amy Wonkka: Um, we have, we 

Kate Grandbois: have talked about a, we've covered a lot of ground today.

Yeah. I'm very impressed. I, I feel like I learned quite a bit. I, I feel like we can, we did not spend an hour talking about writing goals, objections. You can, you can, we were planning for this. I was like, God, we really think we could spend a whole hour. We fill a whole hour of time talking about just one sentence.

It turns out. Not only is that true, but we had to tailor it down and set timers because there was just so much to say. We talked, we've reviewed the code of ethics, the ethical components of goal and objective, writing, the assessment component data, different kinds of data, the how data and data collection is a cornerstone of goal and objective writing, the importance of getting stakeholder input, um, considering different components of your work setting and smart objectives.

Specific, measurable, actionable slash attainable slash achievable, [01:07:00] relevant slash realistic and timely. That was a lot of mouthfuls. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a lot of mouthfuls. It's a, it's a lot. Well, we hope you enjoyed this topic, Amy. Is there anything else that you wanna say about this topic? 

Amy Wonkka: No, I think that writing right, goal writing is a, is a skill and it's something that you learn how to do over time.

But if you keep the the smart goal framework in your mind and use that as a guidepost, it really will help you get better at including all of those components without writing a goal that's so specific you feel like you've, you know, painted yourself into a corner. Right, right. Um, I would definitely recommend both the swagger and the DEEM article.

They do a great job. There's examples in both of those examples of goals and examples of goals that are a bit broad that they, you know, walk you through making them more specific. I would definitely recommend that you check those out, but measurable goals, exciting and doable. Good 

Kate Grandbois: times. 

Amy Wonkka: Well, thank you 

Kate Grandbois: everyone for joining us.

[01:08:00] Um, we hope you enjoyed it. Um, even if you didn't, you can leave us a review or a rating wherever you get your podcast. As a reminder, there is a handout available. That contains, it's an outline that is the content of today's episode with all of our resources available for a dollar. If you would like to have a permanent product with all of this great information, there are certificates of attendance available on our web website as well.

You just purchase this certificate and you'll get an automated email to take the quiz, and then the certificate will be automatically sent to you. And references and articles and online resources are all available for free related to this topic on the episode page. Visit us at www.slpnerdcast.com for all that information and we will see you around next time.

[01:09:00] Excellent.